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The Railroading of Dr. Jeffrey R. MacDonald


Court Transcript of Jeffrey MacDonald's Testimony on August 23, 1979

[Editor's Note: This testimony is a portion of the trial transcript of Jeffrey MacDonald taken on August 23, 1979 at the courthouse in Raleigh, North Carolina. The presiding judge was Franklin T. Dupree, Jr. The full transcript can be read at the link provided below (note: I assume the transcript is accurate and faithful, but I have no way of knowing that with certainty as the owner of the web site which is posting the transcript, Christina Masewicz, is an ally of the persecutors and a long time debunker of Dr. MacDonald). I begin the transcript below at a point just prior to the assault in the living room where MacDonald was suddenly awakened by Colette's screams at approximately 2:15AM . ..Ken]

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/macdonaldcourttestimony23aug70.shtml
August 23, 1979

Fayetteville, North Carolina

From the Trial Transcript of Dr. Jeffrey R. MacDonald (in progress)
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.com/html/tt-1979aug23-macdonald.html

[snip]

Q Now, did you carry Kristen back to her bed when you found her in your own bed with your wife?
A Yes; I put her back in bed--in her own bed with her bottle.
Q Had she brought the bottle into the master bedroom with her?
A Yes; she had gotten up out of her own bed with her bottle, toddled into the master bed- room, and climbed in.
Q All right, did you get into the bed yourself at that point?
A No.
Q Tell us why. Tell us what happened.
A The side of the bed that Kristie was sleeping on had a large wet spot. She had wet the bed.
Q That was the blue sheet that was on the bottom of the bed there?
A Apparently so.
Q Was it wet to the touch at that point?
A Yes, it was.
Q What did you do when you realized that she had wet the bed?
A I decided not to sleep in the wet spot. I went and got an afghan from Kristie's bed at the foot of her bed and went out to the couch to sleep.
Q How had you left the bedclothes on the master bed at that point?
A I believe I pushed them towards Colette, exposing the wet spot so it would dry by morning and not--you know--get rank.
Q Had you considered waking Colette up and changing the bedsheets and rearranging the bed so you could get in the bed together?
A No, it never occurred to me.
Q All right, you went back to the living room at that point with the afghan. Did you take anything else back with you?
A I don't think so. I think I went back with the afghan and went to bed on the couch.
Q How long would you say it was before you fell asleep?
A Two or three minutes. I was very good then at falling asleep.
Q Dr. MacDonald, I'm going to move in a minute with you to discuss the events that took place after you went to sleep on the sofa. Before I get into that, I want to ask you a couple of questions just about the number of occasions you've had to talk about--before we get to that, how long would you say was the time that elapsed in the struggle that you have de- scribed that was played in the tapes and in the other statements that the Government has read to us here in the course of this trial? How long was the struggle that took place with you and the persons you saw in your house early that morning on February 17?
A It's tough to say. I would say less than a minute--30 seconds--45 seconds.
Q Now, we've also heard from the material that has been played here before, the testimony given by the witnesses that you became unconscious and ultimately came to and you went and tried to treat your family. Can you tell us about how much time was involved in those episodes--the trips to each of your members of the family's bedrooms to try and treat then and the second time around. About how much are we talking about--what is the total time period?
A I think that's--I have such--it's so vague and confusing in my own mind it's a hard an- swer. I think, in piecing it together and trying to detail my movements through the house that we're probably talking about under ten minutes. I would guess seven to ten minutes.
Q Now, back in February of 1970, after the killings of your family, after your own injuries, you were questioned somewhat about this episode by Agent Caverly of the FBI at the hospi- tal; is that right?
A Apparently so.
Q Then on April the 6th of 1970 you were questioned again by the CID for a period of several
hours about the events that happened that night; is that right?
A In a manner of speaking.
Q Then there was the Article 32 proceeding during the latter part of 1970 where you testi- fied at length about the events of February the 17th, 1970?
A That's correct.
Q And, after that, in 1971, were you not interviewed again by the CID and talked to CID agents in 1971 about the events of February 17?
A On at least two lengthy occasions.
Q And then in 1974 you were asked to be a witness for the grand jury in this case, do you recall that?
A That's correct.
Q And you testified over a period of five or six days during the grand jury about the events of February 17?
A It was at least six days of testimony.
Q Now, besides that, have you been asked on many other occasions to talk about or de- scribe these events--talk about these circumstances?
A Yes; I have.
Q Including the lawyers at various times in connection with the case?
A Many lawyers at many times.
Q Since 1970 until today--1979--can you give us a general figure about how many times you have been asked to talk about either in great detail or just in general terms the events of February 17, 1970?
A At least hundreds of times.
Q When you say the events that you are actually talking about are the struggle was less than what--less than a minute--less than a half minute?
A Thirty to 45 seconds would be my best guess for the struggle.
Q And the attempts to treat your family and deal with your own injuries and to get help you estimate was seven to eight minutes?
A That's my best guess.
Q How certain are you of your memory of the exact details of each and every step that you made on that night?
A I am not certain at all. I have never been certain. I have never told anyone I was cer- tain. It is extremely vague. There is a lot of confusing thoughts. There is a lot of sounds, and there is a lot of sights; and the recollection is hazy at best.
Q Have you tried over the years, since 1970--have you tried to sort out the events and make them rational to yourself?
A Most certainly.
Q Does that make you any more certain or less certain about the exact sequence, the pre- cise way in which everything happened and the struggle took place?
A This has not.
Q Dr. MacDonald, after you fell asleep, what is the very next thing that you recall seeing or hearing?
A I heard my wife screaming.
Q What was she saying?
A She was just screaming at first.
Q Just the sound of the voice?
A That's right.
Q Did you hear something after that?
A Yes, I did.
Q What was it you heard next, and whose voice was it?
A It was Colette's voice.
Q At this point was she saying something that you could hear and understand?
A "Jeff, Jeff, help me. Why are they doing this to me?"
Q Did you hear some other voice at that time?
A Kimberly.
Q Tell us what Kimberly's voice was saying to you?
A All I heard was, 'Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy, Daddy."
Q Crying out?
A Yes.
Q What did you do when you heard your wife calling your name and your daughter calling for Daddy?
A I just started to sit up.
Q Were there any lights on in the living room at that point, Dr. MacDonald?
A Not in the living room.
Q Was there a light on in any of the rooms nearby?
A There was a light on in the kitchen. It was left on every night.
Q Tell us about--in your own words now, go ahead. Describe to us the events as best that you recall them that took place. That is, you started to get up in response to the cries of Kimmie and Colette?
A I saw some people at the foot of the couch.
Q Could you tell, at that first instance when you saw the people, how many were there?
A I could not. I eventually saw three males and one female.
Q What was your reaction? What did you say, what did you do, when you saw people there and you heard the voices of your family?
A I either thought or said, "What the hell is going on here?"
Q Go on and tell us what happened?
A I also either thought or said, "What's going on here? What are you assholes doing in my house?"
Q Go ahead?
A At the same time that I was sitting up, there was a black male to the left of the three people right in front of me. He started to swing something at me.
Q Could you see what it was?
A I could not.
Q Go on and tell us in your own words what happened at that point?
A I raised my left arm.
Q Show us?
A I raised my left arm, and I got hit, I believe partially on the arm and my head at the same time; then I was knocked back down on the couch.
Q Could you feel the impact of the blow on your head?
A I could.
Q Do you recall what you felt when you received that blow?
A You can't really explain it unless you've been hit in the head. You see stars. That's ex- actly what you see; and you can't--there is a pain and there's light--it is a light burst; and it is not clear then what happens.
Q What is the next thing you renember doing or was happening there in that room?
A Trying to get back up.
Q You say you went back after that blow. Were you fully back on the sofa at that point?
A I think so. I think I was flat on my back.
Q What happened then?
A I tried to get up again.
Q Go on and tell us the events?
A It is hard to take one thing and say it was next, because there were several things hap- pening at once.
Q All right, we understand that. Tell us in whatever sequence it seems easiest to explain. Let us share with you at this time all that you can remember of the events in that living room?
A At some point--I think it was before I was first hit--but it may have been after I was first hit--I heard the words, "Acid is groovy, kill the pigs."
Q Do you know who was saying those things?
A It was a female monotone voice.
Q What else do you recall happening?
A After I was hit the first time and started to get up, my thought was that I better not get hit in the head again or I won't be able to get up.
And so I attempted first to fend off the next blow, and at the same time to grab the arm of the person who was using the club, which I did do at some time in the struggle.
I at one point had a hold of an arm on which there were E-6 stripes.
Q By E-6 stripes, you mean military stripes indicating a Specialist rank in the Army?
A Sergeant rank. It is three stripes at the top and one rocker on the bottom.
Q Go on and tell us the other things you can remember of that struggle, what happened, what you did, what you heard?
A I think I heard--and it's still not clear--the words "Acid and rain."
Q Does that mean anything to you?
A It does not.
Q "Acid and rain" or "acid rain"?
A It does not mean anything to me, except that I think that is what I heard. I was getting punched--what I thought were punches. They did not appear to be very effective; and I remember sliding down the arm that I was holding on to the club.
Q I am not sure that is clear to me. The arm with the club--the person who had this--a sleeve which had the sergeant's stripes, is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Could you tell at that time, or were you able to tell at any time what kind of clothing the person was wearing who had those sergeant's stripes on?
A I had the sense that it was an Army field jacket. I thought and still do think that it was an Army field jacket with E-6 stripes. The E-6 stripes were right in front of my face.
Q And it was that arm that had the club?
A That is correct.
Q Tell us, if you can, what happened? Did you get a hold of that arm, and what did you do when you had a hold of that arm?
A He was trying to jerk his arm back, and I was trying to hold on to his arm so he couldn't swing the club again.
He kept jerking back and he was jerking back he was pulling me forward.
Q Toward the end of the sofa near the hallway door?
A Toward the end of the sofa.
Q All right, go ahead.
A So, I kept thinking, "If I let go of his arm, he is going to be able to hit me with the club again." At some point in this struggle, my arms were bound up in my pajama top.
Q Now, can you describe for us in any more detail perhaps how the pajama top and your arms became entwined?
A I had a pain in my head. I was hit at least once in the head, possibly twice by now. I was holding onto someone's arm. Two other people were punching me. I was trying to think, "What the fuck is going on here?" I could hear Colette, and I couldn't make any sense out of what was happening. At some point, my hands were bound up in the pajama top. I do not know how it happened. I have tried to figure out how it happened. I did not hear a ripping sound. I thought that it was either--it had to have either been pulled over my head or ripped from around my back. I do not know which. I have never known which, and I have never made any statements about which.
Q As far as the logic of the situation, you have tried to figure it out, though? Now, in hind- sight, you have tried to figure it out?
A That is correct.
Q But as far as having any precise memory, are you telling us you do or you don't have a memory as to how the pajama top got over your arms?
A I do not recall how the pajama top got over my arms.
Q Go on and tell us in your own words what else you remember about the episode and what else was going on at that time?
A At some point during the struggle, I got what I perceived to be a sharp pain in my right chest. My immediate thought was--as a matter of fact, my exact thought was--it is one of the few things that is clear--was that, "He throws a hell of a punch."
Q That was a mental statement you made to yourself?
A I don't know if I said it, but my recollection is that I thought to myself as I was holding on, at this time the club, and he was jerking me toward the end of the couch trying to get the club free. Someone else hit me in the right side, and I said, "That was a hell of a punch."
We struggled--at this point, somehow he got free. He pulled the club back free. I said to myself, "I'm in deep shit."
Q What do you mean? What did you mean then?
A I meant that he now had the club free. I felt that I would probably be hit again very shortly. I, at one point, had a hold of someone's hand in which I saw a blade.
Q Did you feel anything else or see anything else at that time?
A I thought to myself, "That probably wasn't a punch. It was probably a stab." I thought to
myself that there was a distinct possibility that I was going to be killed.
Q Were you frightened?
A I was not thinking fright, but I am sure I was.
Q What else do you remember was going on at that time?
A It was somewhere in here I saw a person that I perceived to be a girl and still think it was a girl.
Q What did you see about that person?
A I saw a white, floppy hat, blond hair. She did not appear heavy. She appeared to be 115 or 120 pounds. She did not appear very tall, but I say that relative to the men that were in front of me. She was shorter than the men that were in front of me. I saw her for a period of a second or two between, I believe, the two white men that were at the end of the couch.
The only other vision that I had of her at all was of a knee and the top of a boot.
Q How did you get that vision?
A I remember the floor coming up and me going down, and I saw in an instant--literally, an instant--I saw a bare knee and the top of a boot.
Q What else do you recall of the fight--struggle--of your own activities--your own observa- tions at that time?
A I remember receiving what I thought were multiple--what I thought to be not very effect- ual--punches to the abdomen and to the chest, some of which later turned out to be punc- ture wounds or stab wounds.
Q Did you know at that time that that was what was happening?
A I did not.
Q What else did you see about the appearance of these people? Did you get any other sight of what they were wearing?
A The white male in the middle had something behind his neck which I took to be a hooded sweatshirt. The male on the right-hand side, he was taller than the male in the middle and had on what appeared to be a lightweight nylon jacket waist-length style--lightweight wind- breaker-style jacket.
Q Anything else about the third man--the one with what looked like a fatigue jacket with stripes on it?
A None of the men had long hair. They had haircuts consistent with military personnel. I did not and never have called them hippies. The black male appeared fairly heavyset and mus- cular.
Q What was the black male wearing?
A The black male--all I knew was a fatigue jacket with E-6 stripes.
Q That would be the man that you said you thought had the instrument he was hitting you with--the club or stick or whatever it was?
A That is the man who did have the club.
Q Now, you said that you grabbed a hold of that at some point--that instrument?
A That is correct.
Q You also said you had a hold of a hand at some point. Is that the same hand that had the
instrument?
A I had a hold of hands several times during the struggle. It is very disconnected in my mind. I had a hold of a hand at one time in which I thought I saw a blade and at which time I said to myself, I have just been stabbed," referring back to the pain in the chest. At ano- ther time I had my hands wrapped around another hand that I believe--that I believe were the hands of the black male holding the club.
Q Did you feel anything on or about the hands of any of these people?
A He appeared to have gloves on.
Q That is the black male?
A That is correct.
Q Excuse me--go ahead.
A I think.
Q Do you have any sense of what you were feeling? Did you have any sense of the texture or the quality of what you were touching?
A It was a rough feel. It was not a feel like surgeon's gloves. It was not smooth. It was like rubber gardening gloves with like little bumps all over them--like pimples--like work gloves or gardening gloves. That is my sense--that is my recollection of the hand that I was holding which I believed to be around the club.
Q Now, you say you described another hand in which you saw some kind of instrument?
A That is right.
Q Did you see anything in the hand of the woman with the floppy hat?
A I never saw her hands. I saw a light on her face.
Q Where was that light coming from as far as you could tell?
A It appeared to be coming from in front of her--from her hands, but I never saw her hands. There is a difference. I saw what appeared to be a light coming up from in front of her.
Q Can you tell us anything about the light--the kind of light? How did it appear to you?
A It appeared wavering or flickering. I just remember distinctly remembering in that brief instant that it seemed like it was a light from a candle, but I did not see a candle.
Q Do you have any other recollection at this moment--at this time--about what went on in that episode other than what you have told us? If not, then tell us how did this episode end for you?
A The next thing I knew, I was lying on the floor and the house was very quiet. My next recollections--(pause)---

THE COURT: All right, we will take our morning recess and come back today at 11:50, mem- bers of the jury. Don't talk about the case among yourselves or with others. Remember all those things I told you and don't do them. We will come back at 11:50.

(The proceeding was recessed at 11:30 a.m., to reconvene at 11:50 a.m., this same day.)

F U R T H E R P R O C E E D I N G S 11:50 a.m.

(The following proceedings were held in the presence of the jury and alternates.)

(Whereupon, DR. JEFFREY ROBERT MACDONALD, the witness on the stand at the time of re- cess, resumed the stand, and testified further as follows:)

D I R E C T E X A M I N A T I O N (resumed)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Dr. MacDonald, right before our recess, I asked you for your last memory of the struggle on February 17, 1970, and you said you remember seeing the floor--seeing it come up to- wards you.
A It's not an accurate recollection, but it's close. The last thing I said was I was on the floor and the house was quiet.
Q Now, had you or had you not been unconscious?
A Yes; I must have been.
Q Do you have any idea about how much time had elapsed?
A I have no idea.
Q What was your first thought when you were aware that you were there in the house and it was quiet--the first thing that occurred to you?
A My teeth were chattering and I thought that I was going into shock.
Q Tell us what you did and what you experienced at that point.
A Then the sounds of my wife and Kim came sort of like flooding back and so I realized the house was quiet and I didn't hear Colette so I got up to go to see Colette.
Q Were you in the living room at that point--on the floor of the living room?
A Probably halfway in the living room and on the steps, and my best recollection was my chest was on the end of the hallway above the steps.
Q Was that the first or second riser up?
A Right.
Q Was there any sound at all that you could hear at that time?
A I heard no sounds.
Q You decided to go see whether Colette was all right or not. What did you do?
A I got up and walked into our bedroom.
Q Down the hallway?
A That's right.
Q What did you see when you got there?
A Colette was on the floor.
Q Was there any light in the room at that time?
A I don't know.
Q Do you know whether you turned lights on or off?
A I have no idea.
Q Let me show you some pictures and ask whether you recognize the scenes. Let me show you, Dr. MacDonald, a series of photographs that have been marked previously in evidence as G-39, 40, and 41, 42, 43, 44 and ask you to look at the first picture, please, Dr. MacDonald, and tell us what the scene shows as far as you know.
A It shows Colette on the floor.
Q Is that where she was when you first saw her?
A No.
Q All right, we'll come back to that. Would you look at the next picture, please, and tell us whether you recognize that photo?
A That's Colette on the floor.
A Is that how you saw her? I don't mean the position now but is that the way she appeared to you the first time you saw her?
A All I remember is a lot of blood. I don't remember her arm positions. She was leaning against the green chair, and she is not in these pictures.
Q All right, would you look at the next picture, please, and tell us whether you recall that scene at any time?
A Yes.
Q Is that another picture of Colette also on the floor?
A Yes.
Q Now, in this picture that's marked G-41, is that the green chair you are talking about here?
A Yes, it is.
Q The picture doesn't show how you saw her at first, though; is that right?
A No, it does not.
Q Can you tell us perhaps a little bit about how her position was when you--to the best you can recall--when you first saw her there?
A Her right shoulder was up against the green chair. She was leaning more on her left side.
Q Now, did you come close to Colette at that point?
A Yes, I did.
Q Did you see anything about her injuries at that time, Dr. MacDonald?
A All I could see was a lot of blood.
Q Let me show you G-44 and ask if this perhaps depicts how your wife appeared to you at that time?
A That's how she appeared.
Q Look at G-43, please, if you will, and tell us if that also reflects the blood as you saw it at that time? Please look at it.
A She looked bloodier than that to me.
Q What did you do when you saw your wife there?
A I took the pajama top off my wrists and I took a knife out of her chest.
Q Would you show us, please, on your own body--just point if you would--where this knife was?
A It was somewhere in the central chest. I don't specifically remember. Roughly in the mid- dle of the sternum.
Q What did you do with the knife?
A Threw it away.
Q When you say you "threw it away," you mean in the room some place?
A I really don't recall. I just remember taking it out and throwing it.
Q Were you down on your hands and knees at that time?
A Either right then or immediately thereafter.
Q All right, you described coming into the room and finding your wife and taking out the knife. Tell us whatever else you recall doing at that time in the bedroom.
A I gave her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation but the air was coming out of her chest.
Q You mean out of the stab wounds in her chest?
A That's right.
Q Please go on and tell us what you did then.
A I checked her pulse.
Q Were you trying to see whether there were any signs of life left in her?
A That's right.
Q Did you detect any sign of life in your wife's body?
A I did not.
Q Go on and tell us what happened then.
A I remembered I heard Kimmie so I went to see Kimmie.
Q Where was your pajama top at that time?
A I have no idea.
Q You walked out of the bedroom into the other bedroom in the house where you heard Kim- berly. What did you see there?
A Kimmie.
Q Was the light on or off in her room?
A I don't recall but I think it was off. I couldn't see her well but I could see her.
Q Was she in her bed?
A She was in her bed.
Q Did you move toward her bed?
A I went to the right side of her bed.
Q What did you see?
A She had a lot of blood on her.
Q I would like you to look at three other photographs, Dr. MacDonald. These have been marked Government Exhibits 56, 57, and 58 in this case. Would you look at Government 56, please. Do you recognize the scene there?
A That is Kimmie, but that is not how I remember seeing her.
Q Would you look at Government 57, Dr. MacDonald, perhaps, does that reflect any of the things you saw at that time?
A Yes.
Q Would you say she was bloody?
A She was covered with blood.
Q I ask you to look at Government 58, please. I must ask you to look and tell us whether that looks like the way you saw your daughter?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember anything else that you did in Kimberly's room going in there and observ- ing her condition? Did you try any life-saving--were you able to try any life-saving proce- dures with her?
A At some point, I gave her mouth-to-mouth. I don't know if it was now or later. I also checked her for pulses.
Q I am sorry?
A I also checked Kim for pulses.
Q And you say you are not sure whether it was at that time or some later time that you tried to give her mouth-to-mouth resuscitation; is that right?
A That is correct.
Q Well, whatever time it was, what was the effect? What did you learn? What did you find out?
A The air was coming out of her upper chest.
Q Was there any sign of life at all when you checked her pulse?
A No.
Q What did you do at that point?
A I went to see Kristie.
Q You went out and across the hall?
A That is right.
Q Did you go into her bedroom at that point?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember whether the light was off or on in that room?
A I do not recall.
Q What could you first see when you went into Kristen's room?
A I could see her lying in bed.
Q Could you see whether any blood was on her at that time?
A When I got closer.
Q How close did you come to Kristen?
A I gave her mouth-to-mouth.
Q Let me show you again some photographs marked Governments 59, 61, and 70. I ask you, please, to take a look at G-59 and tell us whether that looks like the scene as you first saw it when you entered her room?
A It is close.
Q What, if anything, do you think is different in this photograph than what you first saw be- sides the fact that there is light on here?
A I remember her an being more on her back.
Q More on her back. Please look at G-61. Is that the way you first saw her?
A No.
Q Again, was she more on her back?
A I remember her as being more on her back.
Q Finally, look at G-70, and if you would, examine this. Do you recall seeing the bottle in the
position--the baby bottle--as shown in the position in this photograph?
A No. I do not remember seeing the baby bottle.
Q Do you remember giving her the bottle, though?
A I gave her the bottle.
Q When you last had seen her alive, what position was she lying in?
A On her back but towards the wall, I believe, facing towards the wall. Her bottle was sort of on the right side of the bed. She was facing the wall when I left her last.
Q But when you walked in this time, she was not in the position as shown in the photo- graphs, though? She was not in that position when you walked in?
A She was not in that position.
Q What, if anything else, did you do in her room--Kristen's room?
A At that time?
Q Yes, please.
A I believe I checked her pulses.
Q I assume you found nothing there at that time either?
A I found no pulses.
Q Tell us where you went and what you did after that?
A It is not really clear what I did next. My best recollection, at some point, I was standing in the hallway and I went into the bathroom, but I also went to Colette again, and I don't know which came first. After I went to Colette the second time, I believe, I picked up the phone in the master bedroom and called for help.
Q Before you tell us this, can you describe what went on when you went to see your wife, Colette, the second time?
A I don't know if I gave her mouth-to-mouth again. I was down next to her, and I believe I, at some point, covered her with my pajama top and something else, and I don't remember what the something else was.
Q Do you know where it came from--this other item that you covered her?
A Probably from the green chair. I recall reaching across her and pulling something off the green chair towards her. I do not know what it was.
Q Could you tell us why you were covering her at that time?
A I didn't--I didn't---
Q (Interposing) Well, let me---
A (Interposing) I didn't know what else to do. I don't know.
Q You, in fact, in reality, I suppose if that word applies, knew she was dead then?
A Probably.
Q Did you have any other idea of what you could do for her?
A Start an IV.
Q None around?
A I had some medical supplies. I don't know if I looked for them or not.
Q But you had found no signs of life in her, had you?
A No signs of life.
Q What happened when you went to the bathroom? Do you know why you went there--how you came to be there?
A I went there mainly to check my head.
Q Were you becoming aware of your head at some point--aware of some feelings in it?
A My head was hurting all through this, and I knew that I wasn't thinking very clearly, and I couldn't figure out what had happened.
And I looked in the mirror in the bathroom to see if there was any massive or major appear- ing head wound to account for that pain in my head and the inability to think.
Q Is it fair to say--what was your mental state? What word or adjective would you apply to yourself?
A Confused.
Q Now, when you looked in the mirror, do you recall what you saw about yourself at that time?
A I saw a bruise on my forehead. There was some blood on my forehead, and there was blood around my mouth. That is all I remember.
Q Do you recall looking at your torso and your chest or any part of your body above your waist?
A I looked at my chest at some time. I don't remember if it was in the bathroom or in the hallway or in the master bedroom; and I saw that I had what appeared to be a small wound in the right chest that was bubbling. I don't know where I was when I did that.
Q Did you do anything else in the bathroom that you now recall?
A I think I rinsed my hands off.
Q Do you know why you did that?
A I have no idea.
Q As a doctor were you in the habit of washing your hands?
A Yeah.
Q Did anything else take place that you can now recall while you were in the bathroom?
A No.
Q What is the next thing that you recall doing, Dr. MacDonald?
A Talking on the telephone.
Q Now, there were more than one phone in your house at that time, were there not?
A That's right.
Q Which phone do you recall going to at that time?
A The phone in the master bedroom.
Q Tell us about what you did when you went in there and about the phone conversation that you had?
A I picked up the phone and I dialed "0" and the operator came on; and I told her I was Captain MacDonald at 544 Castle Drive and that we needed help. I said there had been some stabbings, people were dying, and we needed medics and MPs.
Q What did she say, if anything?
A She said, "Is this on-Post or off-Post?"
Q You mean, whether this was actually Fort Bragg or the City of Fayetteville?
A That's what I took her to have meant.
Q Tell us about whatever else you said to the operator and whatever the operator said and did in response to your call?
A I couldn't figure out why she would ask me that, and I thought that I said to her, "What do you mean, 'is this on-Post or off-Post?'" I don't know if she repeated it or not, and I dropped the phone.
Q Do you recall what was going through your mind at that time when you let the phone go and let it fall?
A Yeah; I recall what was going through my mind.
Q Please tell us.
A I thought she was an asshole.
Q Why?
A It seemed like a stupid question. I had given her my address, I told her we needed medics and MPs, and she wants to know if it's on-Post or off-Post; and I couldn't figure out the re- levance. Now it's easy to figure out the relevance.
Q Why did you not hang the phone up?
A I didn't even think about it.
Q Where did you go and what did you do after that?
A I was standing in the master bedroom at some point. To be honest it was before or after the phone call, but I think in my best recollection it was after the phone call.
That's my best recollection and I saw that the back door was open.
Q Was that the utility room facing the rear of the house?
A That's correct. The swinging door between the master bedroom and the utility room was partly open, and I could see that the back door was open, and I went to that door.
Q What did you see at that back door?
A I only have a recollection that it was wet outside. I didn't see anything more than grass-- winter-brown grass--and that it was wet.
I didn't see anybody or anything.
Q Was it still dark outside at that time?
A It was dark.
Q Any noise, any sound of any sort?
A No sounds.
Q Do you have any idea today why you went to the back door, what you were doing there?
A I think it was confusion. I didn't know whether to go to the Pendlyshoks--were there still intruders. The Pendlyshoks were catty-cornered to our back door about---
Q (Interposing) Neighbors of yours?
A Neighbors, about 60 feet away. He was in the Green Berets also. He was a lieutenant in my unit. And I don't specifically recall thinking, "I am going to go see Chuck Pendlyshok for help," but I think that was probably part of the decision to go to the back door, as well as to see if there were still assailants there.
I didn't see anything.
Q Then what happened; what did you do?
A I think I went back to see Colette, and very quickly went to see Kim and Kris again.
Q When you say "quickly," you mean you ran from room to room?
A I feel like I was moving quickly, yes. I think that I was trying to get a sense of what I was seeing.
Q After you went back from that door to the master bedroom, do you know which one of the children you went to first?
A I believe Kimmie.
Q Did you do anything in Kimmie's room?
A I don't recall on which time. I did something each time that I can't recall, if you follow that. In other words, I checked for pulses and I did mouth-to-mouth and I did some of those things twice.
I'm not sure if on the second trip I did both.
Q Nothing had changed about her condition; in other words, she was still without any signs of life, wasn't she?
A That's right.
Q Then did you go to Kristen's room?
A Yes.
Q What did you do there, if you recall, this next trip?
A I only recall doing one thing.
Q What was that?
A I patted her on the head and said she'd be okay.
Q I'm sorry; I heard you say that you patted her on the head but did not hear the words.

THE COURT: He said she'd be okay.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q What is the next thing you recall doing?
A Being on the phone in the kitchen.
Q This is the second of the house phones, at the other end of the house?
A That's right.
Q Do you have a specific recollection as to how you got there? Do you remember walking down the hall?
A No. I remember being in the kitchen talking on the phone, and I remember the first voice was a female voice.
Q Do you recall whether you dialed the phone at all?
A I did not dial the phone. I picked up the phone and the female voice said, "Is this Captain MacDonald?"
I said, "Yes," and I said, "People have been stabbed. They're dying. Will you help?"-- something like that; and she said, "Just a minute; I'll connect you."
And I heard a series of clicking tones and a sergeant came on the phone. And he said, "This is sergeant so-and-so," I don't remember the name. He said, "Is this Captain MacDon- ald?" I said, "Yes, it is."
And he said, "What happened?" and then I said, "There are people dying." He said, "What happened?" and I said, "I don't know."
Then I heard him shout, "Make Womack ASAP". He shouted to someone else, "Make Wo- mack ASAP."
Q And then did you listen any more or talk any more?
A No.
Q Do you have any recollection about how you ended that phone conversation?
A I just recall thinking that,"He's getting help"; and my next clear recollection is fighting with an MP.
Q If I understand you correctly, you remember thinking that he was going to get help from the Womack Army Hospital?
A That's correct.
Q Then the next thing you recall is fighting with the MP. Where were you at the time that episode took place?
A I was lying next to Colette.
Q Do you have any recollection at all of how you got there or why you went there?
A I don't remember walking down the hall. I just remember sort of ending the phone conver- sation thinking that help was on the way, and I was going to go help Colette.
Q Do you know how much time elapsed before this MP appeared?
A I do not. It seemed--I don't really have a recollection of time and so that makes it seem brief.
Q Tell us about--what is the first conscious sense--conscious experience--you have with that MP?
A Someone was breathing into my mouth.
Q Did you open your eyes?
A Yeah.
Q Did you look into his face and another man's?
A He was trying to hold me down and I was trying to get up and he was trying to breathe into my mouth, and there were a lot of people there.
Q There were other people in the room too?
A My first recollection is that I looked up at a series of MP helmets--helmets with a white bar around them, and it seemed like there were a lot of people there, and he was breathing into my mouth.
Q What did you do then? When you saw those things, what was your reaction?
A I tried to push them away.
Q Why did you do that?
A I was breathing and I didn't see why he was breathing into my mouth.
Q Did you try to sit up at that time?
A I tried to get up.
Q Tell us the event that took place with this MP. By the way, do you now know who that man is?
A Kenneth Mica.
Q He was, I guess, probably the second witness here at the trial.
A That's correct.
Q All right, you opened your eyes and Mica was there. Go on and tell us in your own words what was taking place in the bedroom.
A There was a series of things that were occurring simultaneously. I was lying next to Colette. He was trying to breathe into my mouth. I was trying to push him away from me, and he was trying to push me back down on the floor, but by doing so he was pushing me on Colette.
Q How could you feel her body?
A I was lying against her, and I remember saying, "Jesus, look at Colette." And he said, "She's okay." Then I said, "Check my kids." He said, "They're okay." And I said, "There's blood everywhere." He said, "I know." And people were pushing and shoving and shouting and screaming and trying to drag me away from Colette and trying to push me back down on Colette and people were shouting "Don't touch that" and "Put that down" and "Tell Womack to get their ass here" and "Where the fuck is Womack?"
Someone fell into Mica and Mica fell on me and I fell back on Colette, and I pushed Mica off me again, and we were having this crazy struggle. He was trying to breathe into my mouth all the time, and I was trying to push him off me, and he kept saying, "You'll be okay," and I said, "I don't need any help." I said, "My wife needs help." That's what I remember.
Q Did things settle down for a little while there in the bedroom with the MPs? Did it get quieter?
A Mica was shouting at me, "What happened?" And I told him something like, "There were a bunch of people here." I said, "There were people here who were stabbing us and beating us."
Q Did he ask you questions?
A Yes, he did. He said, "Describe them." I said, "There was a girl and three guys." He said, "What did they look like?" I said, "There was a black male and two white males, and there was a girl with a floppy hat." He said, "What else?" I said, "I could see a light on her face" or something like that. I'm paraphrasing.
Q All right.
A And he shouted over his shoulder, "Check the girl" or something. He was screaming and everyone was yelling and running and pushing and then medics were trying to push me on a stretcher at the same time that he's asking for more descriptions, and the medics are jam-ming me down on the stretcher.
Q Do you remember being lifted up on the stretcher?
A Yeah.
Q Go ahead and tell the scene that you recall.
A My best recollection is someone was pulling me by my feet away from Colette. At the same time Mica was still trying to hold my shoulders down on the floor so he was holding me in position and someone else was picking my feet up and trying to pull away, and someone said, "Put a pillow under his feet," and I said, "What are you put"--you know--nothing made any sense. I said, "What are you putting a pillow under my feet for?" And--you know--no one said anything. I mean everyone was shouting and screaming, "What did they look like? Who did it?" Someone said, "Are you a captain?" I said, "I'm a doctor," and they said, "But are you a captain," and I said, "Yes, I'm a captain but I'm a doctor."
And I said--you know--we were talking about my wife and kids. I said, "How are they?" And they said, "They're okay." I said, "Shit, she doesn't look okay to me."
Q What else of that episode--those events--do you recall?
A Four or five people were picking me up, putting me on the stretcher. Then the next clear thing thing I--that's clear is that I was off the stretcher halfway into the door to Kimmie's room.
Q The stretcher was out in the hallway?
A The stretcher was in the hallway. My feet were towards the living room. My hand was on the little stereo that we gave to Kimmie in Kimmie's--you know--in the bedroom inside the door---
Q (Interposing) Did you reach inside the door?
A I reached inside the door. My hand was either on the doorjamb or on the stereo, and I pulled myself off the stretcher and they were jerking me back on the stretcher.
Q Do you recall what was being said at that time--what you said--what they told you?
A They were trying to get me back on the stretcher and saying, "We'll get you to Womack and we'll get them to Womack."
Q Do you have any idea now why you were trying to get off the stretcher at that juncture?
A Not really. I guess to try to help Kimmie.
Q Do you recall them taking you down the hallway and out of the house?
A Not really. I remember getting in the ambulance.
Q And in the ambulance do you remember going to the hospital?
A Just that we were moving. I just remember being in the back of an ambulance.
Q Dr. MacDonald, let me go back a bit from this series of events we are talking about. You say that Officer Mica was asking you questions about the descriptions of these people?
A Yes, sir.
Q You gave him some of the information that you described here this morning?
A That's right.
Q I would now like you to take a look--well, let me ask you this: have you tried since that time on any number of occasions to try and get the details together in your mind of the ap- pearance of the people that you saw in your living room in the early morning hours of Febru- ary 17, 1970?
A Yes.
Q Did you have occasion to work with an artist to try and develop the appearances of the persons that you saw?
A Yes, I did.
Q Were you satisfied with the results of the work that they represent as good as you can describe the appearances of the persons that you saw in that house under the circumstan- ces that you saw them?
A Under the circumstances that I saw them; yes.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, at this time, may we approach the Bench?

THE COURT: Yes.

B E N C H C O N F E R E N C E

MR. BLACKBURN: We have reached that stage apparently, Your Honor, where the Defense is going to show the most recent four drawings that were done by the police artist. We would OBJECT on the basis that it has not been properly authenticated as to how those drawings took place. We have never been given the name or talked to anyone. We think the proper foundation has not been laid at this time.

MR. SEGAL: I don't know of anything--any proper foundation that says I have to tell the Government anything, but I do say that I will ask him whether these represent the results of his descriptions. I will develop some more how he did it, but he is the person who was there.
I mean, this is exactly the way thousands of photographs in this case came into evidence. They just simply said, "I was there." He took it and it looks like what they took.

MR. BLACKBURN: Your Honor, if I could say one more thing. One of the problems presenting itself--this is not the first set of drawings.

MR. SEGAL: I will come to those.

MR. BLACKBURN: Let me finish, Bernie. There are some other drawings. They are different. I
think that gives rise to some question beyond this own Defendant's word as to why that was necessary and why they came to be different, particularly, since this last group occurred so much later.

THE COURT: Will you not have an opportunity to explore that on Cross-Examination?

MR. BLACKBURN: Yes.

THE COURT: Well, if he undertakes to introduce evidence that doesn't have any probative force, then, of course, I cannot conceive of it being prejudicial. On the other hand, if you are able to show that he has drawings by somebody else at some other earlier time and were different from these, it seems like to me it would detract a whole lot from the probative force of the ones now sought to be. I don't exactly see the basis of your OBJECTION. You seem to be anticipating what you want to bring out on Cross-Examination and make him supply those deficiencies which you hope eventually to establish at this time.

MR. MURTAGH: Your Honor, we would not have done this if we had not been denied by the Defense an opportunity to interview the artist. You know, they have repeatedly refused to make that man's identity known to us.

THE COURT: Didn't I order them to do so, and didn't they say they would? I can't recall everything. I am just asking.

MR. MURTAGH: I believe that the Court indicated--I ean't remember exactly, but I think that was the drift of it--but at any rate, we don't know who drew these. We don't know who drew this second set.

THE COURT: Well, tell him. It has got to come out at least by Cross-Examination. I guess this witness will know what his name is.

MR. SEGAL: Certainly, Your Honor.

THE COURT: Who was it?

MR. SEGAL: We will give the name. I will ask him right now, Your Honor. I don't think the Government has given the Defendant anything in this case except an exceedingly limited view of what all the facts are. I don't think--unless Your Honor feels as a matter of law there in some requirement--I wouldn't give the Government anything except in the order that I intend to develop it.

THE COURT: Let me just say that the thoughts you just expressed, it just seems to me just sitting here with no interest in the thing, applies to both sides. Both of you have played it just as close to the chest as you can.

MR. SEGAL: I know that is the view that may appear at this juncture in the case. I will tell you it is not where we started in 1975. Our history did not begin on the 28th or 29th day of trial, Judge.

THE COURT: Well, I am going to let you ask the question. You go on.

(Bench Conference terminated.)

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q Dr. MacDonald, I am going to show you a series of exhibits which have been previously numbered as Defendant Exhibit 89, 90, 91, and 92, and ask, first of all, for you to look at them without showing them to the jury yet. Tell me whether you have ever seen those before?
A Yes; I have seen these before.
Q Now, is this the work of an artist based upon information that you gave and descriptions that you gave the artist?
A That is correct.
Q And as you gave the artist this description, do you know what he did?
A He would draw a figure and he would then re-show it to me and I would correct.
Q You have said "figure." I suppose that it implies a whole body? Are you talking about figure or face?
A Face.
Q Then, as you looked at it again, did you make any comments upon the way he had done it?
A Yes. I would say that the eyebrows looked, you know, too high. They were lower. He would move them down, and I would say, "That looks better." Then, we would go to the nose and the cheekbones and the upper lip and the lower lip and the chin and the cleft in the chin, and we would do every specific thing piece by piece until we had developed a reason-able rendition of the people that were in my house that night.
Q Now, when this process was done, did this represent as best you could recall and the best he could capture the words that you were able to give him in describing the people you saw in your house?
A That is correct.
Q I ask you to look first of all at D-91. Which one of the attackers does this picture de- scribe and show?
A This was the black male who was to my left at the foot of the couch and had the club.
Q And is the man who was wearing the jacket with the E-6 stripes on it?
A That is correct.
Q I ask you to look at D-90, and ask you which of the men attackers this picture repre- sents?
A This is the white male to the right side--of the two white males, he was the taller. He was to the right side--my right at the foot of the couch.
Q I notice on the neck of this man, there is some ornament of some sort. Do you see it?
A Yes, a cross.
Q Do you recall seeing that on the neck of your attacker?
A Yes, I do.
Q I show you D-92, and ask which of the men involved in the attack upon yourself does this picture show?
A He is the man in the middle who was the shorter of the two white males. He was also shorter than the black male.
Q What kind of clothing is shown here in this particular drawing?
A A hooded sweatshirt which is my impression of what he had on that night.
Q Do you recall which of the three men who are depicted here had weapons?
A The black male had a club and at least one of the two white males had a knife that I saw, but I do not really know which one it was.
Q Now, I show you D-89, and ask you, Dr. MacDonald, please, does this resemble the woman that you saw?
A Yes, it does.
Q The hat more or less, the shape of the hat that you saw?
A That is the hat as I recollect it.
Q What about the hair as to the color and the length as it appears here?
A It appears the way that I remember seeing her.
Q Does the face generally seem to accurately represent the shape of the face?
A Yes. This is the person I saw least, but this is my recollection with the artist with hours of re-drawing. This is my best recollection.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, may these be published to the jury?

THE COURT: Very well. I thought you already had.

MR. SEGAL: I am not sure that all four of them had, Your Honor.

THE COURT: I mean you were showing them to the jury as you were asking the witness.

MR. SEGAL: Yes, Your Honor.

THE COURT: But if you want them to see them in their hands, that will be all right.

MR. SEGAL: Not necessarily. They will have it available later. That is all right.

BY MR. SEGAL:
Q All right, you described the persons you saw in your home. You told us about the MPs coming in your house and going to the hospital, and you remember the vehicle moving. Tell us your recollections upon arriving at Womack Army Hospital? About what happened to you-- what was done--and how you felt?
A My recollections from the hospital are not very clear. I clearly remember a nurse asking me my social security number. I clearly remember talking to Dr. Severt Jacobson. He at- tended me for I thought it was three or four--he said seven or eight minutes. I recall getting an x-ray. I recall a lot of people bustling around and hustling around and a lot of noise and seemingly confusion. I remember crying a lot. I remember asking for my wife and kids.
Q Who were you asking when you asked about your wife and children?
A Whoever all those people were that were around--nurses, there were orderlies, there were people taking my clothes off, starting IV's, drawing blood, taking x-rays, then wheeling me to X-ray for another x-ray, then a portable x-ray, and eventually a doctor putting in a chest tube.
Q Well, do you remember Dr. Jacobson being the first doctor that came in contact with you?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the next doctor that treated you or dealt with you on that morning?
A I don't really recall that Dr. Bronstein was next. I now know he was next, so there is a difference there.
My next recollection was of Dr. Gemma.
Q Dr. Frank Gemma?
A That is correct.
Q Tell us what you recall about what Dr. Gemma did and said and what you did and said when he was there?
A He came in and examined me briefly and said that, "You need a chest tube," and I said something like, "I thought so."
Q How were you feeling at that time, physically?
A I felt like my chest hurt. It seemed a little hard to breathe, not as bad as it had seemed earlier, quite honestly.
My head hurt a lot. I seemed--I felt confused and I just remember crying a lot.
Q After Dr. Gemma said he thought you needed a chest tube, did he do anything further?
Did he start the procedure at that time?
A I don't recall any specific sequence. He eventually put a chest tube in.
Q What is the next contact you had with the doctor that you can recall?
A This is when I recall Dr. Bronstein.
Q What was he doing; was he treating you at that time?
A Not really; he was consoling me more than treating me. He was with me. He spent some time with me that day. As I recall it, it seemed like hours.
Q And when he was with you, you were crying still?
A As I remember it.
Q What was the next event of any significance in the hospital that you can recall?
A Being confused, getting some medication, having a hard time talking, and then Mr. Caverly questioning me.
Q Now, did you know at the time what medication you were receiving or do you now know, having been given your medical records what medications were given to you in the hospital before Mr. Caverly came?
A I now know; I did not know then, and I know I was getting medicine--I thought--for pain.
Q What is the medication you actually received at that time?
A I had received 200 milligrams of Nembutal intravenously, and several--two or three doses of Demerol intravenously. I don't recall the specific dose; it was 50 or 75 or 100 milligrams each dose.
I think I had 100 milligrams of Vistaril intravenously also at the same--somewhere in this time frame, in the early morning hours.
Q Do you know how long after you received the various drugs you received that Mr. Caverly showed up?
A I know from the medical records. I did not recall it from my recollection. From the medical
records he interviewed me several minutes after I had received a dose of Demerol some time later in the day.
Q Now, you say you had occasion at my instance to look at vour own medical records in this
case?
A That's right.
Q Now, would you just tell us, please, what the records indicated when any investigators came to talk to you--what time it was--that the records say?
A 1:30 to 2:15.
Q Do you have any reason to disagree with that statement that's contained in the records there?
A No.
Q Do you remember Mr. Caverly tell us repeatedly that he remembers coming at 2:25 p.m.?
A The record indicates that he is mistaken.
Q Well, let me ask you this: what is the next thing--well, tell us about the interview with Agent Caverly. How long did that last as far as you can recall?
A My recollection of the interview is that it was very brief, and I was surprised in the medical records that there appeared to be 45 minutes.
Q Did it seem like that to you?
A It seemed much shorter to me. I remember him asking me some questions, and I remember a white head and a booming voice, and I remember sort of being forced into some answers, and he left the room; and I thought it was very quick.
Q What do you mean when you say you were, "forced into some answers"? Did he mistreat you in some way?
A No, no. He would say, "Who did you see?" and I said, "I think I saw four people." And he said, "So you saw four people?"
I said, "Right"; and then we got into descriptions of what they were wearing.
Q Let's discuss that. Do you recall any part of that, how the interview went? How about the clothing. Did he ask you anything specific about the clothing that any of these persons were wearing?
A The only specific recollection I have was that I was annoyed, because we were talking about the man in the middle and I said he had something behind his neck.
And he said, "Like what?" and I said, "Like a hood on a jersey," and he said, "You mean like a red football jersey?" And I said, "Yeah."
Q Where did the color red come from?
A Mr. Caverly supplied the color red; and I remember thinking to myself, "I didn't say red jer- sey, but that's what he means, like a red football jersey--a warm-up jersey." And I said, "Yeah," and his written report now says that I stated that the man had a red jersey.
Q Do you have a recollection of seeing any of the three men wearing a red jersey?
A I did not say that.
Q Do you have a recollection of seeing any of the men wearing a red jersey?
A I do not.
Q Do you recall one of these men wearing a jersey?
A I do.
Q Is that the one that you called a hooded sweatshirt that you saw before?
A The shorter white male in the middle.
Q Do you recall any of the other aspects of that first interview with Agent Caverly?
A I just remember him leaving the room one time because I was upset.
Q When you say "upset," you mean you were crying about your family?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember Agent Caverly's subsequent visit to you on the following day?
A Vaguely.
Q How were you feeling on the second day when he visited you?
A Depressed.
Q How was your head feeling at that time?
A It hurt.
Q How long did you go on feeling discomfort or pain in your head?
A Weeks. At least weeks.
Q How about the third interview, the last time with Agent Caverly?
A The two interviews with Mr. Caverly--the second and third interviews were very brief in- terviews. He did not go over the sequence of events. He said did I have anything to add to my prior sequence of events, and I shrugged my shoulders and I said, "Well, I--basically no." The question was, "Do you have stuff to add from yesterday?" and I didn't remember what I said yesterday, and I said, "No."
Q How long were you in the hospital, Dr. MacDonald?
A Until the 26th.
Q February?
A That's right.
Q Now, the funeral for vour family took place when?
A Saturday.
Q You were still a patient at the hospital on the day of the funeral?
A That's right.
Q Who had handled the arrangements for the funeral?
A Mr. Kassab.
Q And why was he handling the arrangements?
A Because I was in the hospital. We had talked about it and he said, "I'll take care of every-
thing," and I said something to the effect that I would appreciate it. My mother was not up to it. I didn't think Mildred would be up to it, and Freddie offered.
Q When you were finally released from the hospital--how many days altogether did you spend at Womack Army Hospital?
A Whatever the 17th is to the 26th. Eight or nine days.
Q Just briefly, what was the first thing you did when you were released from the hospital? Where did you go? Who did you go with?
A My mother took me over to check out my new Bachelor's Officer's Quarters.
Q Why did you not return to your home at that time?
A Well, number one, I wouldn't have returned to the home.
Q Why not?
A I wouldn't want to return to that scene. I wouldn't want to live in the house again. And, number two, it was apparently still being processed.
Q The CID was still investigating there they said?
A That's right.
Q Did they tell you that?
A They did tell me that.
Q So you went and got new quarters and then what did you do with your mother?
A Ron Harrison came over and loaned me a pistol.
Q Lieutenant Harrison, the Special Forces officer?
A That's right.
Q Do you know why he loaned you a pistol?
A He felt it was better that I had one.
Q Did you discuss whether you needed one and for what purpose you needed one?
A I really didn't care. He sort of forced it on me. I was not--my mood was such that I real- ly didn't care about anything. He kept saying, "I think you ought to have this for your own protection." It was a nine millimeter, automatic pistol, and I kept it under my pillow for a while.
Q About how long?
A Until about two weeks after I was arrested and had an armed guard. I felt a little silly with an armed guard and a pistol in the room so I quietly gave it back to Lieutenant Harrison.
Q What else did you do besides see Lieutenant Harrison? Did you do something to deal with your mood and your feelings?
A Well, pretty early an I decided that I should go back to work as soon as possible.
Q Did you consider at that time asking the Army for an extended leave, say, 30 days?
A Yeah. My mom and I probably discussed it. We did discuss it, and I just felt that it would probably be the worst thing for me.
Q Well, can you tell us how you arrived at the conclusion? Why did you feel this way that it was not advisable for you to take some leave and get away from Fort Bragg and do some- thing else?
A Well, I just felt like I had to--you know--to busy myself to keep my mind off the events of the night, and I felt that if I had a 30-day leave, I would have nothing but time to sit and think about it, and I did not want to think about it. I wanted not to think about it, and I felt one way to do that was to get back into work as soon as possible.
Q How long after your release from the hospital did you return to your unit?
A I don't clearly remember. It was a week or ten days. My mom and I went down to the seashore for several days and then we came back and I went back to work.
Q What was your emotional state while you were on this trip with your mother?
A Depressed. I would say some anxiety but a lot of depression, and I was very down. I had just lost my family and couldn't forget.
Q Did you cry?
A A lot.
Q How did you sleep during that period of time?
A I didn't sleep.
Q Did you have dreams?
A Yes.
Q What did you dream about?
A Waking up to the screams of my family.
Q In your dreams what did you hear?
A The same thing.
Q Well, I need to know what you mean by "the same thing."
A I would wake up, just as I had been awakened that night by Colette and Kim.
Q Did you do anything to try and sleep better, to get past the depression while you were on that vacation trip?
A Tried some sleeping pills.
Q Did they help you in any way?
A No.
Q So you came back to Fort Bragg and you went back to your unit; is that right?
A That's right.
Q Did you start the same job again with the Sixth Special Forces?
A Yes, I did, but very soon thereafter--I don't have a good time frame--but very soon thereafter I became the Group Surgeon so I was now the doctor in charge of--you know--all the medical activities for the Sixth Special Forces group.
Q In other words, you had more responsibility and a larger area of duty?
A That's right.
Q How did you feel about being given that assigment so soon after your family was killed?
A It kept me busy.
Q Beg your pardon?
A It kept me busy.
Q Were you glad for that?
A Yes.
Q How long did you remain as the Group Surgeon for the Sixth Special Forces unit?
A Until I was relieved of my command when the Army arrested me.
Q And when was that?
A Well, it depends on whose version---
Q (Interposing) To the best that you recall.
A April 6 was the day that I was publicly named as suspect number one.
Q April 6, 1970?
A That's right. I was then confined to quarters, but the actual charging--they couldn't make up their minds until May 1st.
Q Well, on April 6, you say, you no longer had freedom of movement?
A That's correct.
Q Was a guard placed on you at that time?
A Yes, there was.
Q And that's the time when you decided you no longer needed to have a weapon to protect you because you had guards outside?
A Well, it seemed inappropriate for me to have a loaded gun in the room and be under arrest so I thought it was better for all concerned if somehow I got the gun out of the room.
Q Then on May the 1st, 1970, formal charges, I take it, against you were signed?
A That is correct.

MR. SEGAL: Your Honor, this might be an appropriate juncture before we start a new area.

THE COURT: All right, now, let the jury retire and we'll come back today at our usual time of 2:30. Members of the jury, don't talk about the case while you are out and remember all of your previous instructions. Let the jury retire right now, please.
Come back at 2:30.

(Jury exits at 12:57 p.m.)


 



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