[Note from Ken Adachi: The information presented below is taken from Jim Keith's 1993 book, Secret and Suppressed, an important book that I urge everyone to read. In this conversation recorded in 1981, the man explaining his involvement with Otto Skorzeny said that he was involved with Otto and the Nazi International for about ten years. Since this conversation was recorded on audio tape in 1981, I have to assume that this man's first meeting and conversations with Otto first took place in 1970 or 1971. Otto's official biography says that he died of cancer in Madrid in 1975, but we know from Otto Skorzeny's conversations with Erik Orion in late Fall of 1999, that the CIA had faked Skorzeny's death, as they have faked the death of most well known, World War II era, high level Third Reich Nazis, some of whom are still alive today due to their access to advanced, age-regression technology which allows them to appear to look much younger than their chronogical age. Of course, Skorzeny's most startling revelation was that German born George Herbert Walker Bush, 41st President of the United States, was infiltrated into the United States by Hitler in the 1930s to act as spy and coordinator of Nazi sabotage, assassination, and intelligence operations.
Many orchestrated "accidents," public massacres, such as the '72 Olympic killings, the gold market manipulation of 1979, and many other "terrorists" style events that had made worldwide headlines between 1971 and 1981 are explained here as the work of the Nazi International or the 'Organization' as it's referred to by insiders. The Nazis, of course, both originated and later refined mind control programming techniques here in the USA following World War II.
By now, many people know that "Dr. Green" of the China Lake, California underground programming and torture center and many other mind control programming centers in North America and Dr. Josef Mengele of Auschwitz notoriety, were one and the same person. I left the page numbers from the book on the left side margin for reference purposes]
A typescript of four conversations taped in 1981 between an investigative reporter and a person purporting to be on operative for !he post-war Nazi International (also known as the International Fascista, the Odessa, and Kamaradenwerk) come to Feral House under mysterious circumstances. Apparently, the investigative reporter found the material to be "too hot" and dropped it in the lap of !he flea market and mail-order entrepreneur John Aes-Nihil, who in turn passed on the material to Feral House. An investigation enabled us to locate the interviewer, who wishes to remain anonymous. He was able to answer many of our questions about the alleged operative and the circumstances of the interview, as well as providing independent confirmation of at least one of the operative's visits to Nazi International chief Otto Skorzeny.
The editor, publisher and interviewer do not rule out the possibility that the information in this interview is wholly or partly imaginative or disinformational. There is another possibility. These conversations may provide the clarest view yet afforded of the inner workings of the post-war Nazi hierarchy, as well as providing clues about many of the conspiracies and major terrorist actions of !he Twentieth Century.
Names of private individuals, included in the original manuscript, hove been deleted.
"My name is K. , and for the past ten years I have served with the international Nazi Party organization as Inspector General or Liaison . between central headquarters and operatives in the field. I would report on actions under way, supply data, information for possible actions in the future, and financial and personal data on individuals in different parts of the world. The Nazi Party organization is composed in two basic parts: the working organization, made up of former SS military officers, former members of the Nazi party, and the second section of German industrialists and businessmen who financially support and provide the logistics support for operations of this organization. They have been involved with and responsible for a number of operations in the past years, among them the DC-10, the problems it has had; recent fires and calamities in Nevada. They have set up and provide logistic and financial support for organizations such as the Irish Republican Army [IRA] and the Palestine Liberation Organization [PLO]; they have and currently are involved with top level individuals in the Reagan administration; they have been involved with the West German government intimately regarding such events as the Munich massacre during the Olympics of '72.
My personal involvement with them is about ten years, and during that time I have moved up to the present position.
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- Why don't we start with your initial meeting [with a contact to the Organization] in the gun shop in Newport Beach, California? How did. you happen to be there and what happened once you were there?
I was on a vacation, and I was interested in going to the gun shop. t used to collect various war memorabilia. and it looked like it had that type of thing in it. I was talking to a young man who was a salesman in the shop, and B, when he came in, we got into a conversation about military collectibles. By the end of the conversation he said, "Why don't you come over to my house. I have some things I'd like to show you." So we went over there and had a pretty nice discussion.
- What sort of things did he have, that he collects?
Medals, particularly medals and order
overseas, and he said, "Ah, I go there quite often. I work for an American company and when I'm over there I have a chance to pick up various
pieces."
We eventually got around to Otto - Otto Skorzeny, He says, "Oh,
yes, I've sold him some things." I said, "I'd really like to meet him." He said, "That's fine. I could arrange that for you. Just let me know when you're going." A few weeks later I got in touch with him and told him I was going overseas again, to Europe and could he help me out? He said,"Sure. Stop by when you're here again and I'll give you something."
- What year was this?
'70, '71 maybe. He took out the card, Skorzeny's card ... it had Skorzeny's handwritten signature across the front, like mine has, and it was blank in back, whereas mine has writing on it - you have the copy of it. He wanted to know when I'd be over there, so he could make me a specific appointment, and I said okay, gave him the time ... and I went over. I took the train from Paris to Munich, overnight train, the Orient Express, and I got settled in at the Konigshoff Hotel, about a block from the Munich train station. At that time I did not know what was going on, so I innocently called from the hotel, not from my room but from the reception desk, put through a call to Skorzeny and here's his phone number, in Madrid, Spain. I got him on the line and said, "This is K--- and B. said ... " and he said, "Oh, yes, I'm looking forward to
meeting you..." and that I come down at such-and-such a time.
Got down to Madrid and checked into the Castellano Hotel, the Hilton. We got there and called Otto and he said, "Just come right over." From that first time and in all our subsequent meetings at his home, we never met at his office. I got to his home and one thing I noticed -- then and at all times -- at either end of this nice quiet residential street in the outskirts,
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there was always a car at each end with men in each car. I was a little nervous about it - it didn't seem right.
-- What was that first meeting like?
Each side was sizing up the other one. It was rather meaningless conversation, about my hobbies, interests, clothing, general World War II run-of-the-mill something-or-other, and he said when he was taken prisoner at Salzburg at the end of the war, the American GIs took all his medals off him; he had the Knight's Cross, that was taken from. him. He was very upset about that and said, "What I did was ... " and he said he put the word out to people - who, I don't know - but he eventually got all his medals back, and this was years later, this was maybe 8 years or so after he got to Spain.
He said, "I didn't want a Knight's Cross or a German Cross or any of the awards, I wanted mine. I knew they were mine because there was ,a mark on them that my aide Radl had placed on them . I would know if
someone was trying to give me a phony or a genuine that wasn't mine. Wait a second. I'll go get them." He went into another part of tbe house and he came back with a black velvet case with all of his medals on it. There was the Knight's Cross, the German Cross, the Iron Cross, there were his awards for service on the Russian front and the Western front. He had an SS service medal; he had, it was like a badge - he was very, very proud of that - it was a Nazi pin, not military but like a college
association, a youth association member of such-and-such youth - but not Hitler Youth, this was at college level. He also had one cuff band or cuff title, all tbe SS had cuff titles; they wore them on the left cuff. Regular army units that had cuff titles wore them on the right. This cuff title was black, had the silver line on each side, and the name of the unit, [and] "OTTO SKORZENY." He laughed and said, "There is no such thing. There never was. Some American sent it to me, and I got a big kick out of it, so I keep it in the collection."
--How long did you stay in Madrid?
Tbree or four days that time. At the end that first time, we were getting along very well. He said, "Would you mind checking on somebody for me?" I had mentioned some of the people I had known in this business and when I mentioned this one man, B ....
B. is writing technical books for historians and people interested in what badge went with this uniform, etc., and was going to write a book about Otto. "You check on him for me," and I said okay. I went back to the United States and spoke with B. and [I] said, "You know, I was speaking with Otto and he's not terribly pleased about what you're doing." B.' s attitude was basically, "Let Otto go screw himself if he
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doesn't like what I'm doing.- we have a contract." Otto's contention was that he wasn't living up to his contract. So I said, I'll let Otto know.
- To get back to Madrid, by the end of that first afternoon, or thereabouts, what did you feel about him?
I'd known from the history I'd read about him that he prided himself' on many things, one of them that he could speak very good English - he cannot - he does get stuck on things and you don't correct him, you just go along with it. I thought he certainly had a great deal of confidence, Certainly, all the times I've seen him, up to and including the last time. [January 1980, Paraguay], he seemed very healthy. He smoked a tremendous amount, mentholated American cigarettes. I had ... from tbe duty-free shops ... a bottle of Wild Turkey. I brought it along as a 'hello' present. He said, "Let's try it out." This Spanish maid always attended to him: and whenever he wanted something it was like he was giving a military order during a massive barrage. Full volume on his voice: "GLASSES. ICE."
If you want to put it on a personal basis, he really loves Wild Turkey, [is a] real chain smoker, loves good food and loves girls. He loves war movies and he really thinks Burt Lancaster is something else, and I'm
certainly not going to tell him that Burt Lancaster's Jewish. Otto is a genuine Jew-hater. He loves hunting. I've suggested that he come hunting in the Untted States. ObvIously he knows it could be done, but no, I think it's more personal than fear. Personal dislike.
- The Organization and the projects, is this his continual focus? Or does he have a life aside from the Organization?
No, he's very involved with the Organization. He doesn't really have: all that much of a recreational life. He compartmentalizes everything. His fun mode, it's all having a great time, enjoying himself, but he can [snaps fingers] turn it off just like that.
-How did you feel about him as a human being?
Very forceful personality. It was very hard despite his gruff personality to picture him as being the kind of person that did his more well-known activities during the war. He said that the only time he'd ever been frightened was when he was on the Russian Front. He had a car and driver at this time which was unusual for a Lieutenant in the SS. This would date it around 1941-42, early Russian Front. He said that they came under a barrage of Russian rockets. They pulled over to the side of the road and he jumped out of the car with his driver and was lying by the side of the road. He was hit, by a stone fragment - I don't think it was a steel fragment or he'd have been dead. He evidently was injured there and put
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on convalescent leave, and he said that really shook him. After that nothing seemed to frighten him, but that did.
- What I'm asking is ...
He's not the kind of person you'd want to go out and have a beer with.
- Was the forcefulness something you enjoyed, or was it repelling?
Oversimplifying it - I didn't think it was good manners. From the very first he has to be in control of everything and everyone.
- You obviously found him interesting to some extent, you talked a lot, but you felt uncomfortable with him because of this overbearingness?
Not totally . Like if I'd want to talk about, say, some part of his war experience, he didn't like that. Not that he was afraid of [talking about] the war experience, but because I had suggested it or somebody else suggested it, he was very definite: "NO!" He dominates the situation. It wears thin very quickly. I'd personally thought, the way we were getting along, how did I get involved? Well, you have to start somewhere. I had perhaps a crazy idea, but no one had really done anything effective against them. I had decided that this person, or these people and their actions were repulsive to me. I'd looked at, certainly, Wiesenthal and his work, and various Jewish people and what they had certainly done, at the War Crimes Trials, and no one had really been terribly effective. They were dealing with front men, dealing on a plane [of]: "Did this man kill a
prisoner of war?" Very flamboyant and maybe makes for good reading and excites the people. but what were the real root causes of this?
- You had expressed a desire for meeting him [Otto Skorzeny]. Was this in conjunction with military collectibles, or did you have some idea
of pursuing this course of harming them, or was it just curiosity?
Mostly [curiosity], although there was the possibility of getting collectibles from him. Curiosity and business. I knew he had his uniforms, they all have their uniforms, and I'd spoken to some American collectors and they mentioned that the SS had a white dress uniform, something really amazing, everything in reverse, the black is white and the white is black. Basically a formal outfit for very very formal occasions, and I knew he had his - of course they all do, the top ones, they still do. Degrelle has one. American collectors said if you can get one, name a price for them. So I asked him about them, and I asked him about his medals, and I tried to do it as delicately as possible. He said that the medals stay with me and when I die they're going to go to the family. Many people had written him, and the few that had actually seen him had made open overtures about buying those things. He had to think that I was getting into that, so he probably thought ahead, and to avoid embarrassing
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me or causing me any trouble, he said, "No, I wouldn't sell anything I have. I'm not sellIng them."
- Let's get back to this second or third meeting. I assume you mentioned this great uncle [of yours who had been in the German Army].
I mentioned it as a matter of interest. From the first time I'd noticed he had a lot of books, virtually any and every book that in any way remotely alluded to German military or economic actions, devolving before, during or after World War II; this man has the books He also has the standard Dienstalter, alterlists, a directory, broken down, SS, Luftwaffe, Army, Navy.
I mentioned this man and he said, "Go get the book there." "Okay." He says. "NO, GET UP RIGHT NOW AND GET THE BOOK!" I got up and went over to the library and, "Not that volume, that one over there." If I didn't pick up the right volume, he'd get very annoyed. It's not my library,
how do I know? I finally got the right book, checked it out and sure
enough, there's the name, Otto Barth, I believe it was Lieutenant GeneraI,
German Army of course, Eastern Front. He'd been captured by the Russians, had been held until the general amnesty of 1955, released and died. His wife -- he says, "Now, I want you to take down the address and
see her. This is the proper thing for you to do." You know, relatives and all that sort of thing. I said, "Okay." He says "NO, TAKE IT DOWN!
HERE'S THE PAPER ... " The more you present problems. the more he gets annoyed.
- Where did she live?
Erlangen.
- Did you go to see her?
No.
- Was there any change in relationship after he had gone through this ?
That seemed to be, in retrospect, very good. Maybe I didn't have
relatives in the SS, so that wasn't perfection - he was a general in the
army, regular army, just a soldier - willing to overlook that fault.
It must have been the second time I had been to Madrid, I checked into
the Luz Palacio and I saw these cars I mentioned, near his house, move
off when they saw me coming out. Paranoid or not, I felt that something
was very wrong, and realized what I was getting into. I was still very
fearful. I walked away from his house . He had never had a cab or a car
meet me, I'd have to go walk out and hail one. I got the cab back to the
hotel and barricaded the door. In all future meetings, coming to Madrid, I
would take the train in, meet him a day, and I wouldn't check into a hotel.
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I would get on the train, in the evening, go up to the Spanish-French
horder, get on a return train and get back in the morning, so I'd be on the
move at all times in public. That got a little wearing after a while.
Which leads me to another interesting situation. He [Otto] asked me to
carry some instructions, and they had to be written ... highly unusual.
Usually things are not written down. That's why the standard types of
documentation people expect don't really exist, to any great extent. It was "I want you to take this file - take it to an address in Stuttgart." I took
the train. France, no problem, through Switzerland, no problem, up to
Geneva, got on a train there into Salzburg from Geneva, Salzburg,
Austria. This was very late at night - one, two in the morning. No one's around, maybe two or three people, and you have to go through German
customs station there on Austrian soil, after you leave Salzburg station . "Open your suitcase." I had all these papers that he'd given me, and I was
laughing and going through my mind, "What's going to happen here? I'll
just play it cool..." and he sees the papers.
- What was the nature of the papers?
Mostly private correspondence, some very personal messages he didn't
want to go through the mail. On top of it, he had given me a photograph
of himself, just after he was captured. It shows Otto in his unifonn before
he had been disarmed or had the medals or badges removed, and it was
lying on top of the papers. Two German customs men opened it up, they
look at the papers, they look at the picture, they knew what it was,
obviously, they closed it up and said, "Go." No problems - that was the
end of the examination.
- When you left, obviously, some situation of trust had been
established. Was there anything other than checking on B. that he had
asked you to do on his behalf?
Many people ask me what do you do, and I answer, well, I'm
interested in investments, stock market and things like that. He was very
interested in that. He asked me about some of the things I had done. It was almost like he was testing me, on certain companies. I went through the questions - they were superficial questions, none of them of real
importance - but the fact that I could answer these questions about
certain companies, he seemed to like that.
Initially it was put to me, oh we don't know too much about that here,
could you get these things for me? Find out about this company? I
remember the very first was ComSat, the first private communications
satellite system, and he was interested in investing. I got that information.
I will say that a number of things put me in his good graces, for instance,
initially on the B. thing. I reported back what B. had said and what B. was
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doing, and I said I'd have to have some more papers, and he even gave me
a copy of the contract he and B. had ...
- You bid your farewells and came back to the States. You knew of B.
because of the book he had written on war memorabilia ...
I met B. and had a discussion with him, the one I described earlier. 1
met with a man at a brokerage office, Merrill Lynch, who was handling
my account. I asked him to get me whatever he could on ComSat, that 1
was interested in investing in it. Give me an in-house report for clients of
Merrill Lynch, and each brokerage house does this. When I went back [to
Madrid] the next time I brought it to him.
-In between visits, you had a correspondence with Otto about B ....
There was a tremendous amount of correspondence about B. I realized
that B. was dealing from the bottom of the deck and selling to both sides.
As far as Otto was concerned, he was giving infonnation to Otto. as far as
various intelligence matters, I don't know what. I knew he was giving
photos. He was one of the people who were extracting files from the
National Archives, and most of what the National Archives had was not
even catalogued, so virtually anything could be missing and no one would
know it was missing. At the same time, he was informing to American
Naval intelligence; why I don't know. I know what he boasted to me ... He had to realize I was going to tell Otto what he said, and maybe this was
just his way of thumbing his nose at Otto, thinking that Otto didn't really have much to say or do about it.
Evidently he was well protected with the people he was dealing with in
the United States, so he thought he had nothing to fear. When I got back
to Otto, I hedged and hemmed and hawed and I said, "Otto, I don't like to
tell you this, but I don't have any proof." "NEVER MIND - TELL ME,
I'LL DEAL WITH IT." So I told him. That this man was selling to
American intelligence, information about Otto. Period. That he had every
intention of taking advantage of Otto on the book and not paying Otto
anything.
- I assume Otto was not pleased.
He was not pleased at all, that's putting it mildly.
- This was when you went back to see him the second lime, when you
told him this?
The second time, right. I had suggested to him, I don't remember if
this is the second or third time, about the time that ... and I got together
about doing our own book about him. He was very excited about this and
the possibility of doing the movie, and he says he has to approve this and
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he has to have the right to ... he's making all kinds, of changes. I'd gone to my attorney and written up a contract, and he didn't like it.
- The contract was concerning what?
The books and the magazines and everything to handle about his experiences. He insisted all this is going to deal with is about World War II, and you can' t tell him "Who cares, that part's only been written about probably a million times." We were getting along and things were developing; I wasn't going to fiddle around too much about that.
- For what reason did you actually go to Madrid the second time?
Basically to give him the information about ComSat, to report on B. and to see how far we could develop this. I was getting very interested in
developing something with him, particularly when I saw he had confidence in me.
He looked over ComSat and liked what he saw. I think that this was
just to see how much I could find out, and how willing I was to fill him in
on company business.
He liked particularly the way I do things in a company, not just the standard data of their financial reports, but the personal asides, and this is particularly what they like. Peculiarities of people that work in a company, be they in the sex line, the drug line, dealing on the side with
another business - all the things that are not usually published, but may be no more than rumors.
- How much time was there between the first and second and third visits to Madrid?
About nine months between the first and second, about four-five months between the second and third.
- What was the result of his being impressed with the work you'd done?
We're not talking about SS, World War II, we're talking about business that had nothing to do with that period. At least I didn't think so. We'd talk about German industry. He'd talk about youth, about how German youth just "don't have any pride," that they're not paymg attention to business anymore. When he was in Germany on one of his
visits when I was gone, he'd had a real verbal row, and he took great pleasure in being able to tell me he'd put down these German youths who were espousing modern thinking. 'This is all wrong," he'd say.
He started to talk about the Messerschmidt-Volkau-Blum, a very large consortium for the aircraft industry, everything from designing air parts to
the entire aircraft, doing sub-assemblies; they did the sub-assemblies on
the A-300, they did it on the Concorde. They did relatively minor work on that.
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At that time they were just developing the XM-I , the new main battle tank for the United States. Gennany was supposed to supply the power plant to it. It turned out that Chrysler would supply the power plant.
You had this amalgamation of the three main countries, Germany , United States and Britain supplying various parts to the battle tank, so since they're all partners in NATO, if something developed, their parts would be interchangeable. We started talking about Chrysler, and he had the German psyche, which he really typifies, he has to be on top or he didn't like it. That was the main thing about the McDonnell-Douglas thing. Mainly because B. was with McDonnell-Douglas. He seemed to hedge around that, initially, but he knew, or felt he knew me well enough to discuss it. He was very very very upset. With the coming in '71 of the airshow in Paris. he wanted me to see that and report back on that.
He wanted me to go to the Paris airshow and to talk to this other man. This was the third trip. He had, evidently, they all had. paranoid feeling_ that people are out to get them and everyone crosses everybody, which isn't all that far from the truth. Everyone is jockeying for position, trying to protect themselves. He says, "I want you to check this S., get him to talk. What I'm going to do now ..... and he took out this business card ~ you saw it [photocopy in possession] and put the signature on the card that authenticates it, and then on the back. He said if I had any trouble, he
wanted me to go, anytime, to this very day to the SS organization in
Ludenscheid. and they will give me any aid that I need.
Beginning with the DC-10 operation, [it) is typical in that it was for
economic purposes. The Organization, first of all, wished to promote their own involvement with the Airbus, as opposed to the DC-10. Where that
were not possible or practical they would use extortion in the form of
payments per aircraft ~ DC-10, 747, L10-11 ~ for everyone sold they would receive a portion of those funds. In regards to the DC-10, the initial
period of approximately nine months to a year payments were made.
- By who?
Individuals within McDonnell-Douglas. Within the corporation
the initial development stages and initial sales there were two employees
of McDonald-Douglas who provided data on design criteria, possible
sales to be made, directly to the Organization and, in reverse, the
Organization through these two men could influence possible sales and
design criteria in the aircraft. The first of these two men, his name is S. He operated out of Geneva, Switzerland, and was initially the financial and merchandising extension of McDonnell-Douglas, their representative. The other gentleman who worked directly out of the Los Angeles area
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was B. He directly had access to and influence through individuals to gain
information on design criteria and sales, and to directly input data on design material into the aircraft and merchandising methods. The DC-10. the payments were made during the initial design and sales principally through the airshow of 1971 in Paris at Le Bourget Field where the show was held at that time.
I went up to see S. Obviously, I could not use Skorzeny's card to get into the airshow. I was up there for Press Day. and at that time, no public was allowed in, only journalists with credentials. I went in there and they had a booth at the entrance at Le Bourget Field. They had what they called chalets, temporary buildings lined up in staggered fonn. and I went to the McDonnell-Douglas one and said I wanted to see S. The receptionist called him over, and I said, "I would like to interview you for a story."
- S. is an employee of McDonnell-Douglas?
Representing McDonnell-Douglas. He won't show on their employee lists as such. He's the one working out of Geneva, where he can make a buck, put it that way. He works for a number of companies. We went in and sat down. and I said. "Otto Skorzeny wanted me to speak with you." He called over a maid, all sort of semi-private. where no one was listening. He says. "What do you want?" I said, "Oh, I think I'll have a bourbon. He's becoming very, very - anything I wanted. now that he knows who I'm from. I said, "What about how things are going? Otto's very concerned. I'm merely passing this on. I don't have any authority, but he's very upset. so how do you see it?" He says, "There seem to be problems with the engine development...
- What engines are you talking about? The DC-10?
Right. This is before anything developed about crashes or anything. He said, "Well, there's no problem at all. There's been discussion [about] the GE engines ... We had a bit of delivery problem with the GE engine, but there's no problem on delivery." He started to mention he didn't know how much I knew. I told him I don 't know that much about what's been going on, merely trying to carry information, that I'm a conduit, a telephone, if you will, between you and Otto. He was showing his concern. He. said, "There's no problem aside from the slight delivery problem on the engines." It's very difficult to put this in words - he was trying to explain that there were problems, evidently in payoffs.
We know now that there had been a problem, regarding the Turkish airliner that went into the tank in Paris on takeoff, and the initial problem with the DC-10 regarding the rear latch on the door. If it's not closed properly then the door can come out, causing immediate decompression.
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- The [sabotaged] Turkish airliner was a couple of years after this, wasn't it? '73 or '74?
The company knew there was a problem. He said, "I know they're concerned about that. I know the Organization is interested in the money alone. They wanted to push theirs, lacking the ability to sell their own, which they were not prepared to do at that time. The A-300 was not ready to fly. They had nothing more than a mockup in '71. So since theirs wasn't ready, then McDonnell-Douglas would pay, since they're the direct competitor. They were looked on more as a competitor than the Boeing, since the Boeing ... at that time the 707 had been in service for quite a long time, and they were looking for replacements. It developed that there wasn't real replacement but little more than augmenting the 747 with the A-300, which has sold marginally, and with the [DC-]10 which has done so-so, certainly in light of what has happened.
He finally started talking, searching me out: how much does he know about payments? I'm thinking: payments? What is this about payments? I was a bit puzzled. I said, "Well, what about the payments?" "Well, there seems to be a problem now with Lockheed being investigated for their possible loan and whether they'll get a loan from the U.S. Government; guarantees. There's a little too much heat on the aircraft industry, and they're balking, they're not making payments." He started to explain, in very simple terms, that McDonnell-Douglas had been approached to pay, and was balking because of this investigation and the heat on the industry, I said, "Well, what do you expect me to do?" and he said, "Let Otto know." In retrospect it makes a great deal of sense.
- Could you elaborate on the specifics of the extortion of McDonnell- Douglas prior to this event [the induced crashes of DC-10 aircraft] and, specifically, how it was done, for how long and payments and amounts? You had mentioned that there was an Airbus which was competing, could
you explain the whole groundwork on that?
The Airbus was developed and sold through a consortium of French and German manufacturers. They perceived the new generation of aircraft to be middle-range and still large-bodied aircraft, an improvement on the Boeing. They were aware that Lockheed and also Boeing and McDonnell-Douglas were also developing that, however, the costs were deemed too heavy for a single European interest to go it alone and consequently this association was developed. I use this word "developed" and it certainly was encouraged by the German side, who because of the DC-10, which will be explained, wished to profit from this and did not wish to tie up a great deal of their own capital in it.
- When you say "German side," who are you referring to?
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Messerschmidt-Volkau-Blum.
- At what point was the decision made, and how was it made, to extort or coerce McDonnell-Douglas?
In the embryonic stages of this, in '71, the German interests did see that the DC-10, the L-1011, the other possible competitors were far advanced, would be direct competition, and they could not go it alone, could not be the first of the new generation of aircraft, and it was decided there were two options. Either through extortion or, if necessary, through the accidents that took place. The [methods] of the accidents as they developed were not known in '71, but they were developing some ideas. The biggest problem in developing an accident is the accident must not appear to be the work of a terrorist because that would not show on the integrity of the aircraft.
- The accidents were to discredit ...
The aircraft itself, yes.
- So they decided to start with extortion. How did they start this?
My knowledge is that D., the representative of McDonnell-Douglas in Geneva, who was the direct Organization man on this - had during the development of the DC-10 worked with B., who also had worked with Lockheed, in direct input and output on design. They knew what was happening and when it was happening and how far it was along. They were surprised in one regard when they saw how deliveries were to be made. They were further advanced than the information had been coming. The information had been coming solely through B. and S. directly to the Organization. The multiple options were discussed and it took a while to do it because if they could avoid the 'accidents', they wished to do that. It was not an ego thing, it was dollars and cents, pounds, whatever. They had worked on the extortion from approximately '71 till about '76. Up to '76 it was not considered a problem. They had run a test, one test, done without notification to McDonnell-Douglas. There was no attempt to extort at all, regarding the DC-10 that crashed in Paris. That was well known to be, at least on the face of it, the failure of the hatch door which caused structural failure of main members in the floor of the aircraft on which passengers were on.
- So the crash in Paris in '74 was a test to see if they had the ability to bring the plane down [Note: 3/3/1974/Turkish/ 346 dead.]
Yes.
-And what did they do at that point?
B. had approached. This was in St. Louis, representatives of the company, I believe top echelon. I don't know the names of the people. It
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was in the most diplomatic but straight terms. It was put to them that it will cost so much per aircraft to do business. There seemed to be, initially, not a great deal of resistance. It wasn't pay or lose an aircraft. They had approached them with the idea that we have contacts overseas, and we can arrange for sales, and then again it can be your aircraft or another person's aircraft. Now what can you offer us? They did pay per aircraft sold for a limited time.
- You say payment per aircraft sold. How were the payments arranged and to whom were they made?
The payments were arranged in cash through a drop in Geneva. The resentment that developed and the balking at payments came at a time when there were congressional investigations developing regarding foreign payments. McDonnell-Douglas felt at this time that evcryone was, to use a crude term, coming clean; they wished to cover themselves. They virtually were forced by government pressure in this country to stop. Again, the government thought it was only a matter of payment to sell planes, and they stopped there. The Organization could care less why it happened. The payments had stopped and they wouldn't resume. After that, the accidents were in earnest, the arranged accidents. S. had corrected some problems that had developed in the ultrasonics system and could be very reliable in arranging that structural failures or cracks could be arranged at any point. They could have it where a crack could be found, reflecting on the aircraft itself, or in the extreme example of the case of the DC-10 in Chicago, they could raise the ultrasonic to such a level that they knew that the natural vibration of the aircraft would complete the work. Whether it be the DC-1O out of Paris with the problem regarding the cargo door, whether it was the Air New Zealand DC-IO, whether it was the Western Airlines DC-10 that crashed on landing in Mexico City, whether it was the DC-1O that crashed at O'Hara Field in Chicago, the one constant that was used in all cases was ultrasonics, leaving no trace. It would be attributed to structural failure of one type or another.
On board the DC-l 0 out of Chicago, it was learned at the airport that two couriers, members of the Organization were to be on that flight and were to meet with a member of MI5, British intelligence, in Los Angeles, by the name of T. whose front is as a representative of a London newspaper. When they were noticed immediate action was taken to develop the structural crack to such an extent that at certain sound and vibration levels consistent with take-off of the aircraft vibrations necessary to complete structural failure of the aircraft would take place.
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The two men on the aircraft, part of the Organization, one K. of Austria and S., who were subsequently killed in the crash.
- The ultrasonic equipment, could you explain what this is, a possible description of the equipment, how it was used?
I have never seen the equipment, but from the conversations that I have developed, the equipment sounds a bit like - it's compact, it could be in the seat of a pickup truck or service truck, which indeed it was in the Chicago example, and the actual device that delivered these highly directed waves is through an arrangement where you can direct it, point it, like a ... they have these 'guns' you can direct for sound.
- Now for the Siemans company ...
Their main work is more than just fortunate. A principal facility of Siemans, a facility dealing in the ultrasonics is located very close to the O'Hara Airport. The device that I mentioned could be on the seat [of a car or pickup truck] .. The power requirements are relatively large for it. The power requirements were drawn from the ground equipment.
- At O'Hara, there are some questions of the time frame. You'd mentioned that this was one of the undertakings that the Organization did that was given belated approval because they moved fast. How long before the flight was this imminent defection discovered?
Less than a day. It was late afternoon, because the information came to me about 11 hours before it happened. Late in the evening, I was in my home when I got a call from a member of the Organization who works for me, and who the Organization is not aware is working for me, and let me know that something was very seriously wrong. It was not a secure line so we had scramblers.
- Who did these orders comefrom?
My man said merely that they came from West Germany. The order was given to watch them, and they were watched. They were observed at the airport together, talking. No two Organization should ever talk in the open. It was decided, particularly in light of the information about the call to T. in Los Angeles that something had to be done immediately, and they knew that the Organization - these people obviously knew because of Siemans' involvement - that no tears would be shed over a DC-lO, and very much, regarding the two men on this flight. Since ultimate authority would come from South America, from Paraguay where the organizational headquarters are, and there was not time to get that approval, then it was decided, then the equipment was brought over from Siemans.
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- The destruction of McDonnell-Douglas' planes, the continued extortion - I presume that payments have resumed since the destruction of the planes has stopped ... the same drops in Geneva.
Yes.
- Why has McDonnell-Douglas been silent about this? Couldn't they have said, "We're being blackmailed by the Airbus people who've threatened to blow our planes out of the sky ... and who have."
The first time they attempted to make the call, they'd be dead before the call was completed. There are people within the corporation who can handle them.
- What did you do after the Paris Airshow?
I took the train that evening back to Madrid, told Otto what had happened, and took the train out again, and during this time - I stayed a couple days at that time - took the train back and forth. I had that thing about not staying in a hotel. After that time I never stayed in a hotel again,
- This is when you went back from Paris?
Yes. He seemed to be very very agitated, and I got the impression that the agitation was almost make-believe. He more or less knew what was taking place, and was merely getting a confirnaation that this man S. could be double-dealing. After all, be was known to represent anybody who could pay the price. I had the distinct feeling he wouldn't have sent me in there on something like that if he didn't know. He didn't know me that long. Unless he knew what the answer was going to be, and was merely looking for that confirnaation. I passed on the infornaation and he made more sense out of it than I did.
I left, and after that I said, "I've had it." I was so unnerved by what was taking place, that I said that after I got through making [my report]. In fact, this is very unusual - usually things aren't in writing, but this time I put it in writing, handed it in through the mail drop in Munich, and
took the first train out just as far as I could go. The farthest place I could
go was Bergen, Norway. Takes three days to get there by train.
- You reported to Otto, which obviously had more meaning to Otto than it did to you, and Otto became agitated - and you feel he was putting you on?
Yes. You could tell when he was really upset about something, just that boasting, blustering way that Germans have. He's Austrian, but same thing, Germans and Austrians. He seemed to be upset, but merely as a put-on. He said, "Let's go downstairs" and - we knew those two cars were there - make a great big show of walking - first and only time he did this, walked out to his car, Mercedes, naturally, parked in the
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driveway. Big show of "How do you do? Hello, goodbye," you know, shaking hands, all very ... Take your pick: could they be Spanish police? Could they be his own people? Could they be Mossad? Could they be American? I have no idea.
We picked up where we'd left off, about how he wanted me to spend a little more investigating, after I'd told him about ComSat. I'd mentioned Dillingham, because I'd looked into it a little bit, it was one of my first. I told him that I found it very disturbing, unbelievable, that the majority of Dillingham's assets were in the Ala Moana Shopping Center, and considering how old the company is, 1903 or 1906, and how they controlled, or can control traffic in the island, how everything to the outer islands, outside of Oahu is done by barge. I had noticed in a standard financial report that Dillingham had listed that the business in the barge traffic was severely hampered because the barge broke down, or the tug broke down. This is incredible! I'm not talking about a Ma and Pa hamburger stand, we're talking about a major operation.
They [Dillingham] also got involved in mining ore in Australia, around the Great Barrier Reef, and the Australian government was sticking it to them to such an extent that they had to pull out. It seemed whatever investment they got into was a complete and utter failure, and the only thing that was worth anything was out in Oahu, probably 350-400 million ... supposed to be the largest, or second largest shopping center in the world. They were well-placed, also owning Cal Gas, and they were getting into real estate in Colorado and in California. They were trying to diversify but they were really being inept. I was curious how this was possible, how they could be so inept with all these supposedly experienced [people]. I found out that the board of directors was overlaid with people [with whom] they had made deals to purchase or lease land for construction, and they'd made deals, to keep the costs down, share the profits. For example, when they were developing Waikiki, draining the swamps at the time, the land they would purchase or lease was on the basis of, first of all, we'll make you a director of Dillingham, maybe some Japanese garden fanner or [the owner of] a sushi stand. "You're a director now." They had more directors than Gcneral Motors, for God's sake. I told Otto this and how they hadn't done anything, and he found this interesting. I looked at it and said, what would it take to gain effective controlling interest? Controlling interest of a corporation can be done, not by owning 51 % of the shares, but by having substantial enough numbers so they have to listen. That would be a good way to start.
I found out how many shares Merrill Lynch had. First you have to know the number of outstanding shares. This is the way they [the
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Organization] work, they take their time, they don't rush. Very very low profile.
The plan was to basically take over the corporation. This would be an ideal thing, given what you 'd control. They have North Shipping, which is a big shipping company, deals throughout the entire Pacific Basin - not doing anything. That was half and half between them, Dillingham and a partnership basis with Norwegian interes ts. The idea was to gain effective controlling interest and then full controlling interest. Not, say the
but to do it through front companies and various individuals. On the books it appears to be maybe 500 or a thousand different people, but in fact the one entity does the directing.
- Is there anything illegal about that?
Yes, there is. You must report to the SEC when you own over 5% of a corporation.
- So it's very difficult to prosecute, since you do have all these individuals saying, I own this . ..
Sure, and I've owned it for a number of years. and I receive the checks. and it goes to their accounts, pay taxes on it. But it's all paid back to the Organization. The Organization gives the word.
- When you have 500 to 1000 people, who between them may own 20%, which is a pretty loud voice in the company, but ostensibiy they are individual owners; how can they act in concert? What can they do to impress the company that there is one block talking without compromising their position?
The Dillinghams are more or less the people who are running things for Dillingham. It's done privately: this is the score, and if you want to test it, fine, we'll test it, and show you exactly how much muscle there is.
- They 're threatening to dump stock, that's the iever?
Right, and then we'll buy it all and build it up to our own standards. We'd prefer not doing it that way, but...
- Let's talk about the Organization and Dillingham. You show them, through Otto, a corporation in trouble, without direction, but which is potentially a very strong corporation. And the plan is that you, the Organization, could buy a controlling interest through 500 or a thousand people. What happened as a result of that?
They went ahead. As I found out later, the Organization has a number of individuals, American, German, French, British, that they control. These people could tell key personnel that because of their tax situations, they can't afford it, but they want the others to buy some stock and be the
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nominal owner of it, and this is how they eventually did it. I reported, through the years, on where the major blocks of shares are. They had a relatively small block for trading purposes. Merrill Lynch had something like 300,000 shares on hand that could be obtained at a special price, off the market. It wouldn 't be shown as a normal trade, just be transferred from one trader to another, and held in a street name, usually by a bank. The front would be a trust.
- Did they act on this?
Yes. I had another meeting - you have copies of notes from that meeting. The first man I spoke to was a P. I believe he is now working for Dean Witter/Reynolds, which is another example of fronts controlling a corporation nominally, but it goes back and back. Dean Witter/Reynolds is supposed to be an American corporation. In fact the principal controlling interest is Arab, and they are in turn controlled by the Germans. It's not in the financial reports, but they are owners of record.
- Which Arabs are we talking about?
Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. They' re the two principal ones.
- Then you're saying that Arab control, where it shows up, is German control? That Otto and his people are behind that?
Yes, and it has been Gennan control since before the war, even.
- Why do the Saudis and Kuwaitis, who have a great deal of money from their oil, why do they ...
They offer them a false sense of security. The Arabs have a great fear for security, physically, for their positions. I use the term Arab not just to say Saudi Arabia, but Kuwait, Oman, Quatar, Abu Dhabi, United Arab Emirates, these various little potentates. The rulers of the country now, 40 years ago were young men, boys. At that time their education, their beliefs, were very carefully cultivated, knowing that one day they would be in power. The Organization doesn't plan for what they're going to do tomorrow, they plan for the turn of the century, at this point. It's a continuing thing. It's not "Get all we can and skip with it." They want to have pennanent effective control, so they've taken this time. It's amazing. The most powerful opposition to the German control of the Arabs is coming from the British, not the Americans. The Americans seem to be pretty content that they control things themselves, but they don't.
- Let's get back to your personal involvement - were you being paid by Otto for the work you were doing?
My payment is knowing what's going to happen in the business world, and acting on it.
- And what year are we talking about?
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'73, '74.
- And during this six months, what is your junction?
To keep track of what's available. To go .through contacts, so when the trader says, "I think we're going to have about 50,000 shares, because someone is about ready to seIl," I know that and place the word through the Swiss Bank Corporation, and when it's available, they're there to buy through intennediaries.
- During this time, were you doing other things for the Organization?
Basically, just passing on financial information. Texaco, Pan American. One that was very good was Allied Artists. That was a case of getting them to go bankrupt, to take over its assets. The last movie they made, The Wild Geese, was the one that did it to them. The movie was done for about two million dollars. Allied Artists - they're very good in a financial sense, they own a lot of monster-type movies from the '50's. They have the rights to most of those. Then once the assets were purchased, they'd be sold. In other words, they picked the company clean.
I had been requested by Otto, during '78 - they were making preparations for control of the gold market, that's the big rush that came in the latter part of '79 - and I started to get information about gold
stocks and the commodity of gold, to watch for movement. I contacted D., and the suggestion was about Rustenberg. Another was Troy Gold Industries. These could be picked up for nickels and dimes. The gold market was very stable. The big rush that was expected when Americans could own gold again never came. That worked very well for the Organization, so when I suggested Rustenberg as a relatively obscure thing on the precious metals markets, because when gold moves, silver and platinum move, pretty much in proportion.
- You've just moved from 1971 to 1973 to 1978 and '79 ...
I was going to go to '75 now.
At that time, Otto was generally concerned. He felt that it was time to leave. So he called me back ... I had called him and he called me back and told me that he was going to be out of town - that meant he was going to Germany. He usually wouldn't go to Paris. Could we arrange to meet as soon as possible, because there were some things he wanted to discuss with me. When he was in Germany, he sent me a telegram, which I have a copy of - I don't go near the originals, that's part of my safety. He told me that it was time to leave. He said. "Now, this is just between you and me. Even the Organization doesn't know I'm talking to you like this."
We had the meeting and went out. There's a restaurant in Madrid called Horcher' s. It was the darling of the Nazi set in Berlin during the war, very luxurious. When the war ended they just picked up bag and
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baggage. the whole family, moved to Madrid, to be close to their customers. When he walked in - Boom! Served you like you' ve never seen before. This was very interesting that he was out in the open like this, but he was obviously very agitated about something, and wanted to explain to me that he had to leave. I wasn't to get in contact with him, he'd get in touch with me. We had by that time set up mail drops, contact points, and some of these places that I have here in Sacramento, I can't stand. They really drive me up the wall. One place, I really have a block about this place. On the outskirts of downtown; it's a queer steambath. A hell of a place to have a meeting. I honestly think that Otto likes to see people squirm.
- So, you went to Horcher's.
Yes, and he told me not to contact him, he would contact me. I would normally go into, say, E.'s place [a mail drop] quite often . I haven 't been there for about a year, now. After he left, I'd gone in there and would have been contacted, normally. He, E., knows where I am most of the time. Sometimes he doesn't know and is not supposed to know: better security, so there can be no leaks from his side. People within the Organization know I work for them, but in what capacity, they're really not all that sure. That's the way Otto prefers it to be, and the way I prefer it.
- How long was it before he got in touch with you?
Maybe December '75. He got in touch again about August of '77.
- About a year and a half. During this time you continued with your reports?
Yes, that was why we had the meeting. He told me, "You're not supposed to know." So when things happened [Skorzeny's reported death {Madrid, 1975}] I was greatly shocked by it. I sent the standard telegram to his widow, and you saw the reply. [Printed card of thanks with painting of Skorzeny.] That was his way of letting me know everything was alright, particularly with the photograph.
- Are there ways to prove he 's alive short of inviting retribution and death? Something a bit less dramatic?
Well , there's that photograph I told you about, of Otto standing in front of the memorial painting which was commissioned after his "death."
- During that 18 months, you continued doing Organizaaon business?
It wasn't orders for Organization business. He knew - he still knows, that I, through my contacts, was able to know what's going on in the business world. Particularly with the Dillingham thing, what developed
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through contacts there in Hawaii was the fact ahout Ariyoshi [Governor of Hawaii] being on the take. It was very helpful to know that.
-In March '75, Otto said, "Hang on, because the reports of my death will be somewhat exaggerated," and in December of '75 he got in touch with you again. You got a message?
I had gone into E: s place, and E. was mentioning that someone was
trying to get in touch with me. I knew who that was and I knew how to
get down. He had told me in our meeting where he was going. He'd said,"This is the time to get out." I found out later, through normal
conversations, that he had gone to Denia, to stay with his friend, who operated a summer camp, something on the Mediterranean.
- Tell me how you got there, and where, in fact, 'there' is.
It's in the north part of Paraguay, the compound. There are a number of ways it can be reached. Get a car, drive down to Mexico, chartering a plane in Mazatlan to Cancun, in Merida, Ostensibly for a rich man's vacation, fishing and all that. You rent a room and keep it, and you keep it for a few weeks, even though you're not there for more than a few days.
You establish a pallern that you're out fishing or bumming around, and meanwhile another plane has been chartered to take you from Cancun to Panama City. From panama City, a plane that will take you the rest of the" way, very long range to Asuncion. A plane of the Organization would meet me, yellow and brown twin Cessna, to [take me to] the airstrip that they have. None of this time would normal papers be necessary, so there would be no records or identification on anybody.
- Are there other ways into the compound area?
None.
- About how far is it?
A twin Cessna will go about 225, 250, and the flight was maybe an hour and a half. I'm not saying they went top speed. I was sitting in the back so I wouldn't know. I do a bit of flying, but at that time, I didn't think it was wise to stick my head up there and say, "What's the speed here? What's your heading?"
- You were heading North from Asuncion?
Northwest, actually·
- What happens once you get to the airstrip?
You get taken up to the house. Well, how do you do, shake hands _ Oh, God, when he shakes hands. The guy's a monster. Obviously I don't have a muscleman's hand, but it certainly isn't what you would call tiny and dainty, but he can just engulf it. Takes both hands in the shaking, He's big [indicates with his hand above his head]. I'm six feet so he must
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be six foot six or something like that. Huge great man with meathook hands.
- Was he the only one there?
There were security people in the area. Friends, how do you do, fine, let's have dinner, talk about - usually when there are groups of people, friendly patter. One would not give names, real names, but you talk ahout things that are ... I mean, really!
- Talk about your crimes?
That's basically what would be done. He asked me ahout how I first learned ahout his demise. He wanted the information I had on some of the companies we discussed, and I told him, at that time I had much firmer contacts in Hawaii, about [the governor] and that he could be bought ~
standard contract
[KA note: John Anthony Burns became so incapacitated with cancer by October 1973, that his Lieutenant govenor, George Ariyoshi took over as acting govenor until the end of Burns' term in 1974. Then Ariyoshi won the governor's seat in his own right in 1974 and remained in office until 1986. I believe the govenor under discussion here is George Ariyoshi]
. It's amazing how you can talk about these things, matter·of·factly. [The governor], his fee is about $10,000 if you want something done. Somebody you want into the state or somebody out of the state with no trouble, or if you want to conduct business in the state, $10,000 to [the governor] and a sliding scale minimum $8-10,000 for the union, and you can conduct business there. They wanted to develop Hawaii on a long-range basis, inter-island transport, through the air. The principal ones there were Hawaiian Airlines and Aloha Airlines, but also charter airlines, which is good for the Organization when they want to move people around quietly through charters. They developed charters. They were having competition with the hydrofoil. I had mentioned to him the hydrofoil was Boeing, and gave him a list of people involved in operating it and best to be dealt with. I wouldn't deal with them.
- You were talking to Otto about developing Hawaii as a base?
I mentioned I'd get back to him next time regarding Consolidated Oil & Gas there. It's these American businessmen - it's a listed corporation on the American Stock Exchange ~ that control Princeville. I said they're hurting for money now. They'd been developing for about five to six years, and it took a little more than even they had. I suggested that as a possibility in the future, said I'll look into it for you. That was basically it. That went over two to three days.
- You were talking about the compound in Paraguay. You said it was about a dozen buildings. Could You describe the place? For example, starting with the airstrip.
The airstrip is not a paved way. It's unpaved and well camouflaged, but the camouflage is removed for landing. It's certainly large enough
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a twin Cessna fully loaded to land and take off, once the camouflage and obstructions have been removed. You can say 5-6000 feet, approximately.
- Does a Cessna need that much?
Fully loaded, it would. If they 're having shipments come in, they would. I'll give you an example; one time they had a safe brought in, a very large safe. It was brought in on a DC-6, which was a hell of a time, trying to get the damn thing off the plane.
- You get off the plane and you're there. What do you see?
It's maybe a half mile from the main compound. Although there is a path, they don't want to have great access to the airfield. Usually you'll walk. The path is there to bring in heavy equipment, and they can use vehicles, but don't usually. There are obstructions on the path, so if someone could get as far as landing without authorization, then it would be very difficult. The growth around it is very extensive. You'd walk a half mile to the main compound, where there is a large 2-story building, Spanish style. There is a garage with room for about a dozen vehicles in it. There' s a large workshop. There's what I like to call a barracks, for soldiers. Army type. Guards. [It sleeps] 100, maybe.
- This large building that you mentioned, what do you mean by large? Ten rooms? More?
Let me count. There's a large reception room as you enter through a hallway. Three rooms on the bottom, right next to the reception area. There's a door leading to them, double glass door to get inside. There's secretaries - secretarial offices in the front, on the ground floor. There's a basement. And Iiving quarters on the second floor.
- How's it decorated inside?
Can it French Continental, I guess. Nothing as ostentatious as Louis XV, but if you were to furnish a home in French style, with relatively fine furnishings, without the gilt, this is what it would look like. The furniture is a problem because of the moisture there. Very damp, constant warping.
- What about the colors? Wood?
Plaster and wallpaper. Very European wallpaper, these little rows of flowers, vertical stripes and flowers. Not effeminate. Blues and greys are predominant. The room that I have is like Dracula's Castle, something from the Victorian era. Not a four-poster bed, but a massive one. I've been in some of the other bedrooms ... large, carved wood, dark.
- Native labor around? Servants?
German only. I've seen 25, 35, maybe up to 50 [soldiers] around.
Civilian clothes. One thing they do have, the Vietnam combat boots, half leather, half canvas.
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- About how much land does the whole compound cover?
I'd say maybe 10 acres, but the buildings are spread out and they're not all in the open. Under cover of trees -there are some very large trees there, or growths.
- What's adjacent to these 10 acres, topologically?
Mountains like the California foothills, a bit steeper, and a bit higher and more heavily overgrown, tropical.
- Does someone own the land adjacent? Is it in use?
No. Not in use.
- Where are the nearest other people?
From what I saw when I was flying in, they're very scattered. There's
a river to the west, several miles away ... very small villages ... maybe
three huts to a village.
-It's a couple of miles to the river?
More than that.
- And all the traffic in and out is through the air? Can you hack your way in through the jungle?
If you want to try it, go right ahead. Not me. There are sensors that will pick up the movement. Electrically-activated mines, in plastic so there are no metal parts to be detected. They're sufficiently large and sufficiently deep so they couldn't be probed for. In fact, if they got far enough to do that, they'd already be caught on the motion monitors.
- What color is the house?
Very filthy white. You paint it and probably a month later it looks just as bad as six years later. Never dries sufficiently, so you have this constant bubbling of the paint or whitewash. It's amazingly clean, though, once you're inside. It's all closed up and everything is air-conditioned; you'd think that you were in a nice European country home. It's their touch of home-away-from-home, so to speak.
- With a compound full of SS General Officers, I imagine there would be a tendency to keep it clean. How many pennanent residents are there?
Not including guards, maybe 20-25 who live there on a relatively regular basis, or who have rooms there.
- In Paraguay there are people around Otto, people in the Organization. Let's talk about them.
These are Germans in the Organization. To be a true member of the Organization. you must have German blood, to be in the heart of the Organization. Some of the people? Joachim Peiper, another one of the reported deaths. It's very fashionable to "die." Peiper was the head of
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unit that killed 83 Americans in the Malmedy Massacre. The War Crimes Tribunal said it was done because they had no place to take them. They were traveling light, so they found it easier to murder 83 men in uniform than to take prisoners. But they had taken prisoners during this period. He also speaks fantastically good English. Otto does not. He's the right-hand man to Otto, very close. D----, Belgian SS, a real lunatic if there ever was one. He's an enforcer, if you will, in the simplest possible terms. Otto Gunch, he was Hitler's SS Adjutant. He spent about 10 years in Russian prisons. Gunch works in the American section. if you wanl to call it that. In fact he has worked with American publishers translating things into understandable English from German. He has a very good grasp of American idiom. High echelon people in Paraguay, not including guards and security ... about 100.
- Inside the Organization, how many members do you think, worldwide?
Approximately 1000. It just took one to set the whole Napa area on fire in California. Oh, other people presumed dead in the Organization, Adolf Galland, General of the Fighter Army, Luftwaffe. He's very good on transportation ...
- Is the Paraguayan government aware of all these people there?
The Paraguayan government are employees of the Organization, nothing more than low-grade employees.
They have him in another position. I've never seen him, this one man I mentioned to you is a source of information . The guy [Bormann] is a nut on apple juice. "Dirty sonofabitch trying to get apples ... " Apples do not grow in that climate; they have to be brought in.
- Does he live reasonably close to the compound?
Evidently quite close. They don't want him around, sort of like a doddering old grandpa - you don' t want the guy around any more. He probably lives in one of the key houses. I tend to believe that he is close by.
- December of 75. You reversed the process and went back up. You worked on those things during the intervening 18 months, and then he got in touch again in August of 77. You got a message to go there again?
Yes, and I did. First of all he asked me how I'd gotten on - evidently he'd done his own investigating. I don't think he ever trusted anyone - but he asked me about how Consolidated Oil & Gas was. He was asking me about Playboy and Columbia Pictures. He asked me, since one of my basic fronts is being into films, since I know a lot of people down there in
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the business in Los Angeles. Also Lockheed. I made some suggestions on how they could get more stock, and that I would get back to them. I started making preparations shortly after I got back, and went to Dean Witter/Reynolds and spoke to W., who is still with them. For a while he was helping me, purchasing stock through Troy Gold Industries, getting back to the Columbia Films, and - this is interesting - the Gong Show. BCHK stock symbol, it paid very, very very well. Two stock splits and some fantastic dividends.
- When was this?
'78. We'd get together very infrequently to talk about what I have accomplished and what I hope to accomplish by the next meeting, whenever that is, in irregular periods. We've already set up making purchases through the Swiss bank. Once I've delivered information to the Swiss Banking Corporation, the money is there waiting to make the buys. It is held and then transferred over, such as in the case in '79, when the gold thing came about. We were reporting on - likc a stockholders' meeting - old business and the new business, and then we'll meet next time. But it was mainly of the purchasing of stock.
- I'd like to ask about the meeting of January '80.
That was more or less a congratulations, with everybody shaking everybody else's hands. That was a celebration, because they'd just sold out their interest with gold price based at 800 and something an ounce.
- Had they also sold Rustenberg?
Everything was sold off. They'd cleared their position. _ Not long before that. I think January was when it hit its peak. Actually, in February was when it went ffffffftt. [indicates straight down]. It hit a high of 852 on the Hong Kong exchange. I think there was some talk of 875, but to my knowledge, it only hit 852.
- They sold at 850, or before that?
From what I gathered, around eight and a quarter. Everything was very quiet - just a big celebration. He wanted to thank me for all I'd done, and I wanted to thank him for all he had done. That kind of profit - you can buy things at 175 - I think the top price they paid for gold was $389, and I had done that myself. I was the foolish one, because a week after the Iranian crisis started I said, "I think I'll hedge a little bit." So instead of buying it directly - I'd buy some directly , actual bullion held in the precious metal account, but on the commodity market, being able to buy much more with little. They hadn't instituted controls at that time. All the playing around that had been done - the Hunts, with the silver, and the gold market being manipulated - the margin was hardly anything. For -
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oh, use a figure - for $10,000 invested you could control maybe a million or more dollars in gold. Virtually like owning a million dollars in gold. When it went up, let's say a contract would be at that time 10,000 ounces, I believe was the contracts we were dealing with, if the gold went up, $30-$40 a day, that's $30-$40 an ounce. You're holding a triple contract - each contract is worth 10,000 ounces. so it was worth doing that at $389, even though I didn't buy it, the gold itself.
- In the previous seven to eight monfhs, quite a few events had taken place which were at tlte instigation of the Organization, starting with, in the period of May '79 through the end of December '79, a series of crashes of the DC·10. Tn Summer of '79 an agreement was made at Bohemian Grove to run Ronald Reagan as president.
Yes. They decided in '79 that Reagan was going to be elected. A meeting was held, those attending being Alexander Haig, George Bush, Steve Bechtel,Dave Packard, Henry Kissinger and Hlmeut Smidt chat Bohemian Grove, in which policy was decided for future election of Ronald Reagan, and possible events to follow thereafter. This was merely a preliminary meeting to decide basic goals and to structure the campaign as these American corporate officers would desire to have it structured. Mr. Bechtel at that time was not in total agreement with certain objectives. To keep him in line a very minor object lesson was made byan attack on Bechtel's holdings' in Central America. At that time General Haig wished to have more input, particularly regarding his possible nomination, but acquiesced when told that was not possible at this time. When he continued to balk at his position he was given an object lesson,the attempted bombing of his staff car, which was never meant to explode. It was not radio controlled, it was electronically controlled by wire. It was never meant to kill, merely a lesson to keep him in line. If this Nazi organization can be said to be composed of many godlike mentalities, there can be only one, and General Haig was not meant to be the one. He seemed to the Organization to be pliable, in that he has done many good favors and passed on much information through Helmut Schmidt, information of a political, military and economic nature, who in turn through his own avenues would forward the information to central headquarters in Paraguay. Shortly thereafter, it was in the final planning stages of the election campaign, it was determined that Reagan was pliable, and could be worked with and dealt with, that there would be no problem. As time grew closer Mr. Reagan was evidently asserting himself in such a way that it was felt that he could not be depended on to follow advice of his subordinates who, in effect, were to be the heads of government. It was determined that he was to be removed. The first operation planned was for
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January 11, 1981 at a dinner held as a farewell to close friends in the Los Angeles area. Information was passed through my sources and the operation was stopped. The man who was to have the contract to shoot the president was M., who was a former U.S. Army officer, who was chosen because of his psychological disability and his background. M., during the Arab-Israeli conflicts in the late '60s and early '70s, while still in the Army, requested a discharge so that he may join an Arab legion to fight against the Jews. This was not taken as normal behavior for an Army officer, and he was immedialely relieved of his duties and placed in psychiatric care in the Army, where he was examined by both a psychiatrisl and, of all people, a rabbi as to his feelings toward the Jewish people. He currently, as his front, operates a small hobby store in Sacramento. He is considered extremely unstable mentally. He is of Russian extraction, he claims proudly that one of his relatives was with the Russian army, a group of Russians that were taken prisoner by the Germans during World War II and who apparently espoused similar ideals regarding the Communists, who were eventually used by the Germans against fellow Russians. His contact in Sacramento is L.l who, as a front, operates a jewelry store, who is the seclion head, the cell leader of KGB in the Sacramento area, and takes his instructions from him. Data from L. is passed through T. who, as a front, operates an antique auction business. My contact was able to prevent this particular contract from being carried out, that is not to say that the contract will not be tried again. as happened in Washington recently.
- Let me ask about the Reagan administration. You said that Reagan was considered to be "pliable" to suggestions from his advisors ...
True. He relies on his advisors to run operations.
- Does, for example, Otto tell Helmut Schmidt who tells Haig and Haig says, "Go?" Or are they trusting tlte instincts of people they feel are allied with them? Are they trusting that Haig is crazy enough to do what they want without prompting?
A little of each, actually. Haig is obviously around-the-bend, but he's just one avenue. The man is so unstable that they don't rely on him solely to give advice to Reagan.
- Could you give examples of the Organization influence, how this has worked?
The petroleum companies, during the Iranian hostage crisis. American oil companies had ordered an embargo against doing business with Iran, and could not purchase oil, not that there was that much to buy. In the early stages, at least, the oil would be loaded on the tankers, out at sea. Papers would be changed. The papers would read that the shipment would
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be going to the Hague, into Holland, Rotterdam, principally, and it would be going to American refineries on tbe Gulf Coast.
- It would leave Iran with a bill of lading to Rotterdam? And the bill of lading would be changed?
At sea, as if it were going from Rotterdam to tbe Gulf Coast refineries, whichever could handle the load. A premium was paid, oh, 40 cents, 50 cents. I heard one time as high as a dollar and a quarter. They called it a commission per barrel.
- Was there much resistance among the oil executives to doing this?
Not at all. Controlling the corporation and having influence is one thing, but ultimately the Organization controlled the flow of funds. It was to their advantage to cooperate. To give you an example. during this time one of the lower rung people wanted to get in on it, and they were contributing a little something, so they were given between 25 cents and 40 cents a barrel. A little something to sweeten it. Considering the capacity of these tankers, it's a nice little touch for making the arrangements. They'd take the fall , if anyone starts investigating, some news organization or government organization that wasn't in the know or wasn't controlled. They'd have to hang somebody's hide to the wall - the guy who's getting the 40 cents commission, because he's doing all the work. He's the recognizable one, he arranged for the shipment, nominally. His name was used, that's more accurate.
- Can you give any other examples?
Eastman Kodak were advised of the manipulation of the silver price far enough in advance to stockpile some rather large amounts of silver. Then, on the announcement of the astronomical prices of silver, going up, they'd announce that we now have to raise our prices. Silver has gone up 10 times over its price in the last 2 months. Now we have to raise our price from $2 a roll to $4 or $5 a roll, when in fact they had silver at the old prices they were using.
- Were the Hunts, who seemed to be at the center of the silver manipulation ...
They weren't. They thought they were screwing the Arabs. It was Arab money that did the buying. So when the bath came, it was the Arabs took the bath. The Hunts got a nice profit for themselves, the Organization got a fantastic profit for themselves, and the Arabs were left sucking eggs. Who took the rap? The Hunts. You notice during the investigation, on paper they supposedly lost, what was it, a billion dollars or so many hundred million ... all on paper ....
- How about Columbia Pictures?
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There was a contract man at Columbia Pictures, and r d met with him and discussed investments. I didn't say "The Nazis want to invest with you." Rather, "We'd like to have some input into Columbia." The idea was to get them hyped up about a project that Columbia would merely make profits - somebody else would risk the capital. They liked this very, very much. We were talking about who the best man was, and I suggested, by no accident, that it be R. This was about six months before the Begelman affair developed.
- What was R. ' s function to be?
To be a star in the motion picture. The Organization would back it.
- Was this picture produced?
Never. Never had any intention of being produced.
- In what way is there profit in this situation?
That they would schedule - this is another example of long-term planning - around this project, scheduling a release, because they would be acting merely as a distributor for the film. When the film was not delivered in time, that schedule was blown for the next year to eighteen months. That immediately caused a depression in the price of the stock. That was merely manipulation so that they could get the stock in Columbia.
- Who was supposed to be putting up money for this?
Nominally, I was. I said I represented European interests that would be interested in investing in this film.
- So Columbia was scheduling distribution for a film that never got produced. How much of a commitment did they make?
They made a commitment - we told them they would have worldwide rights to it, and then we told them we would have to shoot such-and-such a place, and they told us, "We like the idea of R., but..." They actually were our best allies in finding problems. In the interim the Begelman affair started up. The Begelman affair helped us, which we were no part of, but it helped drive the price down so we could get into Columbia, which we did at between four and five dollars a share.
- How did the Allied Artists situation work?
That was '78, I believe, and representations were made to them, supposedly by a producer who wished to remain anonymous, who wished to rescue them from their plight. They were in trouble for quite a number of years - it didn't just happen in one year. What Allied Artists was told ... They had just gotten through producing Wild Geese and were in hock about two million dollars, which isn't a great deal for a film company, but for them it was critical. It was what put them over. An
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agreement had been made to distribute their film and to back any losses they had. The deal had fallen through, particularly when word was leaked to the SEC that the man doing this would be in some violation. He was prevented by some legal maneuvering. SEC was alerted to this, they halted trading immediately in Allied Artists and the company put into receivership and the assets sold off.
- Did the Organization own shares in the company?
Yes. During this period when there was a goosing, this producer - a mythical figure - wanted to buy the company, get them out of their bind. That coincided with the purchase of the shares in the company. When that story started circulating, the Organization had already reached their position in purchasing shares, and the shares had doubled ...
- The shares had been purchased and then the offer to purchase the company sent the price of the shares up?
Yes, and then the shares were sold. The company went into receivership and the assets sold off at a profit. Not to Allied Artists. To the Organization.
- Is there a particular attraction (0 the film industry that the Organization likes?
There are so many ways of hiding profits from the films, basically a type of skimming with creative bookkeeping in some ways akin to the casinos.
- We'd like to get as complete a list as you have in mind of corporations who are involved with the Organization Not necessarily in accord with them, but which have individuals who are under pressure or in accord.
Companies penetrated by the Organization? Texaco. Polaroid, Pan American, Dillingham, Sun Oil, Standard Oil, Lockheed, Resorts International, Columbia.
- Okay, [ ... J had asked if there was any overt connection between Rockefeller and other financial biggies and the Organization.
It's interesting that you ask, because Rockefeller, very bluntly, if not too melodramatically, was one of the bitterest enemies of the Organization.
- Was? You mean Nelson?
That's right. David no, but Nelson yes. Nelson worked long and hard during the period when the Germans were currying favor and developing economic and political ties with South America. He was working to knock those ties out. He never did, but they didn't forget that. He was one of the few men that could put the pieces together, and had contacts in
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South America that could have blown the whole Organization. At least they looked at that as a distinct possibility. So, far from working with, he worked very heavily against. Not a very endearing personality, I know, but he was a decent person.
- You had begun to mention that Devid works with the Organization and that you had some information that Nelson's death was not natural or accidental.
If I may be permitted, the public is supposed to believe that Nelson was screwing his secretary and merely had a heart allack, instead of it being a case of ... what's the word? Fratricide?
- You're saying that David had Nelson done in?
Yes. They considered him too much of a bleeding heart. It must be remembered that Nelson was Roosevelt's man in South America for counteracting the German influence pre- and during WWII. He was probably connected to the Organization, but what's important is that he was one of the few men in a position to hurt the Organization and insulate himself from retaliation. And Kissinger was his advisor. and Kissinger reported to David.
- We had been talking about Carlos, and you had melllioned that he is always protected by Organization people ...
When he's in Paraguay, yes. I've never seen him. I wouldn't know him if he walked in the door.
- This door?
His reputation is such that he makes a very obvious entry. You 'd probably recognize him. Grenade first? It was amazing how he just disappears for long periods. That's where he is [in Paraguay] when he disappears. I've never seen him when I've been down there, and I know he's been there on a least one occasion when I was there. An Organjzation man is with him virtually all the time when he's travelling. The story of his being KGB-trained is
- Do you know any of his background with the Organization?
He is the liaison between the Organization and the terrorists. He's the only one who knows it's coming from the Organization. The Organization provides logistic support, transports him safely to any location, and when he's not on an operation, he's kept safely down there.
- You mefllioned a 1979 meeting at Bohemian Grove where it was decided to elect Ronald Reagan. What was done. specifically. to help elect him? Since you mentioned some involvement with the Iranian hostage situation, was that a part of this plan?
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You must remember that the Shah, the one who died, his father was very pro-Nazi. The German industrial element has very carefully, for many years, cultivated the Middle East countries. There was a time when the royal families were a joke - give them some girls, give them a few fancy parties and they're happy and you can steal their oil for a dollar a barrel. They're now stealing it for forty bucks a barrel. Where do you think the money's going? They get the families to up the price and use the money to invest in the Organization's financial dealings, be it directly in bullion, as I mentioned before. This created a physical shortage of gold, and this was engineered by the Organization. So we're getting back to Iran, and how Iran could help Reagan. Actually, it was supposed to hurt Carter, which it did immensely. People weren't going to vote for Reagan - they were going to vote against Carter. The semantics don't matter. Reagan was elected.
- How was it done?
Information was fed from the Organization to Helmut Schmidt to David Rockefeller to Henry Kissinger. Creating friction leading to an incident and feeding the incident. Very simply, the incident was created by bringing the Shah to the United States. The people in Iran looked at it very simply. Their reaction was predictable.
- What about Organization involvement with the IRA?
The IRA has been funded by this Nazi organization to a great extent. Principally, though, they supply the transmittal of funds and supplying data, supplying logistics, that is, specific materials such as explosives and electronics to accomplish the terrorist acts, such as bombings, burnings and shootings. Among the terrorist acts of the IRA the Organization has supplied the murder of Mountbatten, in which S---- supplied part of the electronics for radio control of the bomb that was set off on Mountbatten's yacht. The Organization continues to supply safe houses for materials to be stored, people to be secreted away, before, during, and after an operation. and to provide safe conduct out of an area. Where it is deemed necessary or advisable, sacrificial lambs are usually given up to the authorities, and the investigation regarding the particular incident would end.
- We haven't really talked about people that you meet and encounter
as part of the Organization, the gossip and shop talk, where they happen.
My position is something like Inspector General, and I'm known in certain segments of the Organization, but not all segments. With that unique situation Otto allows me a great deal of freedom. If there's a particular operation that's being planned or is in process, and he feels that he wants an independent observer, I'd be over there. I'd be going two
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times~ three times, four times a year to Europe to observe the operations. as T say, in both planning and operational stage, and then reporting back to him through my drops in Europe. I wouldn't have to directly contact him for that.
- What sort of operations are these? I know that you've mentioned that the first one was at the Paris Airshow in '71, where you met with S. So, ideally in chronological order, which operations were you overseas for and reported on?
Most of the principal terrorist operations that took place in Europe, I was there to observe. I'm talking about the hijackings. There was one obscure one - I could never figure out why I was supposed to be there observing it, but I was there to observe the hijacking out of Malmo, Sweden. I was told to contact - I don't know his name, but I was to be on a certain train that ran between Copenhagen and Oslo and crosses over at Heltenborg on a train ferry. At that point a representative would contact me, and know me by sight. It turned out that this man was a representatIve of Bofors Corporation. They have a number of irons in the fire, sort of a Swedish Mitsubishi Corporation, not just the Bofors guns. He would be filling me in on what had taken place up to the time when I had gotten there, and what was going to take place. Then I would stay in the general vicinity, usually in these little obscure pensiones and hotels, and observe and report back through a mail drop.
- We 'll talk about the other hijacking aftervards, but right now, Malmo. What airline? SAS?
1 don 't even recall. It was so obscure and nothing of importance came of it. Was I being tested, were there doubts about my reliability? Was there some facet that I didn't understand? I don't know. But it stuck in my mind even though it wasn't a principal operation to my knowledge.
-What about the others? I understand it's a burden to say chronologically, going back ten years, but you'd said something about three {hijackings]?
The Swissair, TWA and Pan American. The ones that were hijacked to the desert, all three of them, and then eventually all blown up. That was the first big operation.
- That was obviously a major project, but what was the payofffor the Organization in that?
It indebted the PLO to the Organization through Carlos - it was a Carlos operation. At the same time it got one of the Organization people out that was suspected of, well, the gentleman was going to be picked up on his arrival. Who the gentleman was and what plane he was on and
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what the destination was, I have no idea. But they evidently had to get a man out.
- What was the payoff to the PLO?
Dollars and cents. I was in Paris and was in touch with the people supplying Carlos with the materials for the hijacking. And getting direct reports: I'd be monitoring the frequencies that the communications, during the hijacking, were going out on. During every hijacking operation specific frequencies are assigned because it's known that the Organization will be listening in. This is the way the Organization keeps the PLO honest, if such a thing is possible.
- Was the Organization involved in the American hijackings?
Not to my knowledge. Everybody jumps on the bandwagon.
- Okay, you're sitting there, or standing there, in a comfortable apartment or a dingy warehouse, whatever it is where the monitoring equipment is ...
Crummy pensione on the Right Bank ...
- And you are hearing the reports coming over. Are you talking in between?
We're talking about: what the hell are they saying? They're speaking in Arabic. There was an Algerian there doing the translating. When I'm in Paris if I need protection I have Algerian bodyguards, the kind of guys who would knock off their mother if the price was right.
- Was anyone killed in that one?
No.
- How about another operation?
There was one where, of all things, a Lufthansa plane was hijacked, flown to Africa. I believe it was the co-pilot that was shot and thrown out the door. Maybe the pilot.
- What was your reaction to that?
Disgusted. Very sorry for this one gentleman who was shot. Especially when it came over that the man was begging on his knees not to be shot, and they just put the gun up to his forehead and psssshhht!
- 1 know you were filled in on the Munich massacre, the Black September thing at the Olympics ...
During the 1972 Olympics in Munich, which was one of my first assignments. I tended to collect data and merely be an observer to report to Olto on tne events that were taking place. The material, that is, explosi yes, grenades, weapons were smuggled in through diplomatic pouches.
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- Through which country?
Kuwait, and through North Sea ports, particularly Hamburg.
- Were you all observer on [this operation]?
Directly, on site. This was the first big operation I was lnvolved on, early Summer of '72. I didn't know what was happening until I got there. I was told to get a flight from New York to Brussels, only time I've taken Sabina from New York, and then taking the train from there to Germany. Arriving the following morning in Munich where I was met in a house that had been prepared for me. I was taken to a hofbrau house very close to the city hall , and it was explained to me, the operation was to take place this very afternoon.
- How much of what was to happen did he tell you?
That the arms had been moved in, had come through diplomatic pouches, and the operation was due to begin in the early afternoon.
- How did he describe the operation?
Taking of hostages from the Israeli part of the compound. The word had gotten out, and [Mark] Spitz was on the list. He would have gotten it if he had stayed longer. They'd take hostages, to disrupt and hopefully end the Olympics.
- And how long before events actually took place was this briefing?
A few hours. We went out to the main section. I didn't have much time and after things started popping I didn't have much desire to get into the spirit of the thing, the Olympics. I just wanted to get the hell out of there. We were there when the shooting started ... The buildings are here [indicates] and the freeway comes virtually parallel with the U-bahn, cross the U-bahn station over the freeway here. The big stadium with that ugly plastic cover was here and on the other side was the place for the track meet. Over in this section was where the quarters were and where the action took place. surrounding it in a semi-crescent was a raised piece of ground where everyone was standing and where we were.
- Is that the same area where the news camera were shooting from?
Yes. I had a telephoto lens on my camera and I was viewing through that - it was just as good as binoculars, really. I couldn't really see much of what was taking place. It was more a matter of a personal demonstration to me. Later in the day we went into Munich again, as things were developing, and we'd gone into one of the Lowenbrau beer bars. 1 said, "I don't know about you, but the first shots I hear, I'm going under the table. I've had it. I want to get the hell out of here."
- At this time the PLO was still in the quarters?
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Yes, very close to the time when they made the transfer. The word came that they'd made the deal to take them to the airport, then that they'd taken them to the airport. We're following this bit by bit. The news agencies were covering it quite well. Then the news of the shooting and - not bombing, but grenading? I think it's bombing of the helicopters after the German sharpshooters couldn't take them out at not more than 100 yards.
- The event concluded. What did you do then?
I wrote up my report and made my drop in Munich, and it was forwarded. I got the first train I could to the farthest point I could get to.
That was the beginning of regular trips to Bergen when things got a little hot.
- You mentioned that there are several projects beginning right now, tlWI are in the works ..
One operation underway regarding the problems that England is experiencing, depending on who you listen to, labor problems, racial problems, basically Rightist in origin through the Organization's contacts. This is to lead to a finality. Let me backtrack: when these various IRA men went on their hunger strike in the Mays prison in Northern Ireland, when they died, if anyone was wondering why the reaction hasn't been terribly severe from the IRA they will find out because of the ultimate operation starting to take effect at this time, which would culminate in the assassination of Prince Charles. I was told first that it was to be on the wedding. now I am led to believe through my contacts that within this dissident faction in our organization, the date is being attempted to be moved up considerably to within a week, not more than ten days from today. In any event, whether it be the dissident factions' will that will prevail. or the older generation's ideas that will prevail, they do agree on one point, that Prince Charles will be assassinated through IRA. I believe that it will be by bomb and not by gun. The electronics are already being shipped, and a number of locations are being prepared, since it cannot be absolutely assured because of heavy security on Prince Charles what particular location would be best. [On November 28, 1992, Reuters New Service reported that an IRA informer had revealed a bomb plot on Prince Charles and Princess Diana that was to have taken place in 1983. There are unsubstantiated accounts of other assassination plots against the Royal couple. - Ed.]
- You mentioned the old faction and the new faction in The Organization; could you cover the differences that they have in attitude towards strategy?
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The dissident faction, the youthful faction, differs from the older group in that they wish a more direct, open statement, rather than the subtleties that the older Organization has used. The older Organization will only use assassination when it is in its best interests and necessary; the younger men feel that this should become more policy and not merely a once-in-awhile proposition. The old Organization wishes a very low profile, the younger organization doesn't concern themselves with any kind of a profile, they merely wish to be moving ahead. They haven't seen any appreciable movement, and they wish to be more direct in accomplishing their goals, their goals being more economic than political."